How to Get a UK Work Visa With No Lottery (H-1B Lottery Reject POV) - w/ Hari

He got rejected from the H1B Lottery three times, so he texted 10 YC startup, got 4 callbacks and moved to London. There is no Lottery and the process was much easier. I got the visa within like 2-3. But that's not even the craziest part of my guest today, Harry Prasad's story. This guy got rejected from university's ranked 150, but got accepted into Colombia with an undergrad degree that wasn't even relevant. We always think that, hey, do me a favor by taking me in Colombia. It's actually the other way around this.

So they don't just take pet on people who follow the template, they also take pet on people who question the template. And when a senior data scientist on his team quit, most people would just keep their head down. Harry went straight to the decision maker. Hey, you lost the senior data scientist. I have got to be much cheaper than that guy. I still can't believe I talk like this. I don't know, maybe the jobless person will go any excel to talk.

Every single inflection point in this dude's career came from doing something that no one was willing to do. If you see a template, step 1 is to break it, right? Never ever follow templates. It's the perfect recipe to get ignored. I'll catch you all in the next one. New episodes every week. Oh, thank you, Unaman. Thank you for having me. I've actually seen your before you asked me for this podcast. I've seen a few of especially so-hundred, right? That's how we got connected. And this is great. You're doing quality stuff.

I can see that quality mic you see, whether you mention this professional or professional and stuff. You're doing really good. I appreciate that. Thank you. That's really kind. And yeah, I agree. Shout out to our common friend, Sohan, for getting us connected. And obviously, I feel like he is just kind of that glue. I'm sure there's so many connections out there that have been made because of him. So, yeah, Sohan, if you're listening, shout out to you.

But, Harry, for you, I wanted to dive in with for somebody that's so prevalent on LinkedIn, right? For somebody that has such a big following there. You're about always jumps out to me as a bit of a misnomer, if you will, right? It's just four words. It says, "Here till AI replaces me." And I just want to jump in with why is that? Like clearly, you made an informed decision to not go down the optimization route, not want to be discovered by, I don't know, who's trying to discover you? But tell me about that. Why is it like that?

I mean, I used to have it. So, I think like four years back or something, I made an about section, even before that five years back, I made an about section. You know, I was active on LinkedIn for the past two, three years, but I never updated my about section. It was like still outdated. And I didn't have time to go and update it. I give advice for people how to keep the LinkedIn properly. So, that was happening. Then I was like one day, I have to update my about, what should I add?

I was not looking for a job on LinkedIn immediately, at least, like when I was doing that, even though I was searching, I had other mediums and I was focused on something else. So, I was like, I don't want the SEO and stuff. It's fine. Let me tell what I think. I just put it there. So, there is no big reason for it. And the reason for that word, right, exact words, here till AI replaces me, I'm a pro AI guy. Like, I believe it's going to replace us for sure.

We just like, it's a matter of fact, who's going to replace, who's going to be there to replace the last is the actual question. We can tie on the AI aspect more, but that's a good answer for that. Yeah, no, that's helpful. And yeah, we will definitely be hitting on that, with when we cover my real product and all of those community building aspects of things. But for our listeners that aren't, you know, the super most well-versed with you or your journey, can you like provide a really quick and dirty snapshot, right? So, we know that you went to Columbia. Obviously, that's Ivy League. And kind of just maybe start there and share with us what you've been doing. Since I know you had a big life move, which I won't spoil and I will let you speak through that. But yeah, just wanted to hear that overview from you.

Yeah, sure. So I like to explore. You can see that from my profile, I guess. Like, I'm from India. From Tamil Nadu, India, I was doing mechanical engineering undergrad. And I always felt that was like an outdated technology for me. I was very happy for you as well spent. I learned a lot. But that's sort of where I want to be. So I was exploring everything else. Like at the COVID game, either time to for me to explore what I want to do.

So you name it. Like, branding, marketing, video-diting, photo-diting, like every post-kinage guy, really, who is trying to sketch, scared of life, who's trying to get a job. What would he do? Like, I did that professionally. And I think professionally, like, I've done video-diting professionally and got paid for it. I've done photo-diting professionally and got paid for it. I was doing all these things. I never knew where I want to be. Because I don't know how to go. Like, even until my fourth year, I think in my college, even though I'm mechanical, there is one class I would go and see. But you know, it's a very basic fee. After that, I don't even know Python. So I was like, there is no way I'm going to become a software engineer. Actually, that's what I thought. So it started like that.

So eventually, I got fascinated by this data analytics fee because of the combination of like, business, math, and programming. Eventually, that's when I discovered Python SQL and stuff. I liked it. So I started like creating like some real use cases for my own like, stuff that I like. I like web scraping a lot before becoming a data scientist. I was doing a lot of web scraping for myself. I scraped a lot of like things, automated a lot of things. That's when I liked Python because Python is much easier. And eventually, I saw a path to data science. That's when I realized, okay, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this the best way. What is the best way to do this?

Let's do masters because my undergrad is in different degree. I don't have computer science background. But I was thinking, let's say I want to do masters, but is it because I don't get a job? I was thinking that I was like, no, we should make sure I'm getting a job because I already learned basic software, the data science. So I was looking for a job. I got a job. So I have a job. I also have like masters, they offer in hand. I was like, okay, let's go for masters. Now, I'm confident that, okay, I'm not that dumb. I can't get a job somehow. Even India, it's even difficult, right? Okay, again, get a job that we could go to masters came to Columbia. And yeah, that's how it's a very long answer until the Columbia part.

No, no, no, no, this is all very helpful. So from a degree in mechanical engineering, as you said, going to Columbia for a completely different degree, that sounds borderline impossible to me like, I don't know a lot about admissions and such, but you must have had a very special profile to get accepted, right? So can you talk through how you went about with that application process? Because that is really blowing my mind actually.

I think I think this is the way. If you want to get into any mid-tier universities, there is a template for it. Like you should always follow a template as you said, I had to come from a computer science background and stuff. I've seen that I've got, I've gotten rejections from small universities, because like, I've got rejections from like university, which has like ranking of 100, 150 and so on. I was like, oh, well, not rejection, either rejection or they were like, hey, you need to take this prerequisite before coming here. And they asked me to spend like $10,000 more to join that course, what everyone is doing. So that a template is there, but a lot of people demotivated me as well, because there is a template you are from mechanical, you're not going to get in on all these things. But I feel if I'm going to get out of the top

universities, I don't think these guys follow a template, because let's say you put a template, the competition is heavy just because there is a template. So if you have to stand out, you have to prove that how am I going to be different from all these folks, especially if you want to get into top universities. What I've seen is we always think that, hey, do me a favor by taking me in Columbia in like, or do me a favor by taking into Stanford. It's actually the other way around this one. The Columbia is looking or Sanford, Harvard, whatever it is, it's looking that, okay, if I take this guy or this girl in today, five years from now, will she build the brand of Columbia or will she like expand what Columbia already is? They feed this way, they want like extraordinary people to graduate out of it. But when I applied for top universities,

especially Columbia, I just went like, okay, let me talk about all the stuff that I built, even though I'm from mechanical, I started talking about, hey, why I'm making this shift and what's the reason when I did instead of just telling that in a philosophical way, I also proved it. So even when I was learning data science, I wrote blogs that blogs like these 10,000 people and like these things, and you wouldn't do right. Like when I was doing it, like, I think I tried to convince them that, hey, I'm not any other person who's trying to get into data science.

I failed a lot of times. I explored a lot. I think this is the way this is the thing for me. And I wrote a soapy something like that. And maybe I think that is something that held them. And you know, like my GRE score is even worse. Like people say GRE score is important to get it. I think that from the batch, I think they loosen the GRE score because the COVID was happening itself. They were like, it's optional. So people still didn't know, since it's optional, do you have to give how should you shouldn't leave? I think now it's more clear because there are some validation that happened from the previous batches. But in that we didn't have any idea.

I don't want to tell GRE score, but it's really average because it's average. I understood that if I send it to Columbia, there is no way they're going to like, is there ever a judge the book by its cover just by that number? So I remote it. I remote the score. I sent it. So they only read my soapy. And I think they treated that soapy as a decision factor. Even I was so precise. When I got it, I didn't believe it. Because it's kind of like a manifestation form. I manifested for eight months, eight months. And like that's how it happened. Yeah, that's really cool. And honestly, I can relate a little bit to what you said around the like GRE piece, as well as parts of what you said around your application process itself. Although I will say in my case, those things

started to be a little bit more like I started to perceive that idea, right? Your core idea, which was that they want you as much as you want them. Right? This is a two way street. And maybe I started to realize this a little bit more when I was already here and I was applying to jobs and such. And I do think that philosophy is extremely helpful. And I think it's extremely underrated in terms of people don't really realize that. So I do really like that even before, you know, you were in the job market and all of that you had already learned this truth. Because I do think it is like a key truth that is integral to most immigrant students lives in anywhere in the West, right? Like not even just the US. So I love that you said that. My GRE score was also really bad.

The only reason that I so I didn't have an option to not send it because it was pre COVID. And the only thing the only reason it didn't matter in my case was because it was a spring intake and at the time there was just this huge, like people were just convinced that if you go into the spring and take your coat, like just don't apply for spring at all and just stick to fall. So similar parallel-ish lanes, I would say in terms of, you know, how we ended up here, but no, that's really cool. I love what you said around, you know, distinguishing yourself in almost using like a weakness, right? Or a gap in your profile as your strength, right? That there's something so powerful just in terms of how you convey that. So yeah, that's awesome. Let's keep

going. It's a 16 month program. So it's like super fast. And I think the first semester started. And within 15 days, people started telling they got an internship. I was like, oh, I don't, I might resume as empty. There is no way there's no way any one is going to give me an internship. For me, it took like three, four months to even like get an interview. But yeah, Columbia was super like fast because of the 16 months that they didn't give us time to break. So we just came in the sculpture shop. There is like assignments, exams, all this is happening. And there are like your peers telling that I got an internship on Amazon, they post it on LinkedIn, they start doing all these things. I was like, oh, we are too late. Even though I started, I used to, I, I knew like, I followed all these like content creators that mentioned,

like yeah, guys, it's like, you DJ and self, like, based on that, I understood that we had to start the job process faster. So I started as soon as I came, it was not even late. But looking at people, like they started along with me, they started getting off us. That was like, I never expected that would happen. I know like people will be seeing this. I think you can resonate now, right? People are saying this, okay, this guy went to talk university, getting a job would be much easier. I taught the thing. Yeah, that's just not true. Yeah, that's, I just, yeah, for me, I just tell everybody that if you know somebody that's in the US that has a job, just automatically, I feel like you should respect them because this person has walked through fire to get there.

That's just the reality of how things are. So yeah, I do, I agree with what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I thought the same. So the, the bigger culture shop was, Columbia is not going to get me a job, not like on campus, but even the brand of Columbia be on my resume is not going to get me a job. It took me four months to realize because I didn't get a single interview call back for four months. But then things change, things change. I changed my way of like doing for a job. I was like targeting startups. I was reaching out to founders. I was like doing everything that everyone can. I'm, I'm, I'm sure people who are international standards in it, everyone is trying to do that. So I'm not even trying to glorify that, that became the default

for everyone today. And then yeah, I got an internship. Then again, I was looking for a job and like, it went like this. I didn't even feel like I utilized to Columbia, but I feel like I started releasing Columbia after graduating. Like I started becoming like part of like Columbia startup lab. I was attending a Columbia startup competition after, as an alumnae started doing all these things. I wish I had more time at Columbia for me to actually get the return of investment of spending like $88,000 to Columbia, but I didn't use it. But that's good. That's good. But yeah, that's how it went. So it's nothing to be jealous of. Yeah. So I will say, when you said that, when you said that line around, you started utilizing Columbia after you had already left.

If you could go back, would you do things differently or was that just an element of simply not having enough time? So which of you was more true? I think not having enough time is the reason. Like it depends on your priority. Let's say Columbia is like, is one of the entrepreneurial schools, right? A lot of like startups or emerged from Columbia. So I am someone who likes to do that. But when I have $88,000 in my head, and exams, I mentioned my plate and like, I didn't have time.

I didn't have time to think about anything else. The only thing that I had in mind was to get a job. And that's the only thing I focused on. And maybe that's the reason. Or I've seen people who utilize it better. I am actually jealous of those people who utilize it better. Yeah, interesting. So then did you end up at take two immediately after Columbia or was that after a period of working elsewhere? Or was that your first job after Columbia? So that was my internship. So I interned over there. They said they're not going to give me a written offer because they're not higher. That was an interesting conversation after that. But they said they're not going to hire. They're pretty open about it. I was happy that they are like not tricking

being like, it's an internship. They're not trying to hire. They're not doing anything. This was the conversation. So I went there, went to learn, learned a lot in three months. I told them, I worked on a few projects and they were like, they are pretty impressed. So I said, Hey, let me come back for fall. So I got a fall internship over there as well. So it's continued to work. So when I was doing it, I was searching for a full-time job. I was looking for other jobs and I was getting another office. And exactly like around November, what happened is a person, a senior data scientist within my team left the job. So I utilized the opportunity. I went to the decision maker within the team. It was like, Hey, you lost a senior data scientist. You gave me the title data sign this. I'm going to be much cheaper than that guy.

I still can't believe I talked like this. I don't know. Maybe a jobless person will go any extent to talk like. I think that's what I did. I'll be much cheaper than that guy. Right? Obviously, it's a senior data scientist. That's what you saw my work for the past seven months. You know what, how I work, how I work. Yeah, that makes sense. Then we went back, they were like, okay, let me give you an offer. Since I was happy over there, I like the job that I did. So I was like, let me stick there. I didn't take any other offer. I started working all day after Columbia. Yeah, interesting. And then at some point, and this is where it gets blurry for me because I feel like just, at least from looking at your LinkedIn, it seems like at some point from this point, you've had your feet in just multiple boats, because you started doing your

entrepreneurship stuff. You started building my real product. And then yeah, it just seemed like you were just juggling four different walls at any given point. Maybe we can begin with what was driving you to do these things, because clearly, and you know, at least I can tell and most people that look at your LinkedIn, you can tell that you're not looking for that, you know, traditional cookie cutter, have a job, stick to your job, do it nine to five, do like pretty much nothing else the other time. Like I can tell that you're not like that. So firstly, why are you not like that? And secondly, what were you doing outside of your job in terms of trying to build the base that is now so solid, right? You have such a huge following. You're, you're able to just

ship up to UK. No questions asked. So all of those things I suspect had something to do with seeds you planted many years ago. So can you help us just unravel all of that, all of those various threads? I know that's a confusing question, but no, made sense. No, I get it. I get it for thank you for like exploring the experience section. I'm sure you didn't have understood what happened over there. And you know, I would say it's much clearer because I didn't put a lot of things.

I got overcrowded. So I have to remove few stuff what I did because it doesn't, I don't want people to think that what is happening over there. So I'll tell you. So like first thing, a disclaimer, I don't think I'm in a solid position right now. We'll come there later, but going back, right? What happened is like everyone else. So I got a job after graduation. I think people who struggled a lot to get a job they'll realize as soon as after they get a job, the only thing they'll think about is he let's not think about anything. Let's go to the work. They would even try to impress the manager if you think about it. They just go do the basic stuff and they come back home and they live a relaxed life because everyone juggled a lot of things and they just fly a little

radar. Yeah, just being right noticed. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah, that's what I think many people can say. I agree. No, I agree with that. I was doing the fame. But the thing is, fortunately, that's when I was like part of the Columbia startup lab. I was kind of like a data AI advisor for one of the startups. Like he's like, he's Columbia alumni. He's a business school alumni. I was helping him build a product. Like I was like advising him. So I was like, like, I was part of the community, the startup lab community. I was like seeing people what they are building. And it took me four months. That's when I realized, hey, I know I want to get a job.

I know I want to pay my debt. It's on track. So I'm getting paid. I'm paying. I'm not even thinking about anything about my finances. I take care of my expenses. Whatever is remaining, I just put it in my like paying back my loan. That's how it was going. Yeah. So so it was on on track. So I was thinking like all these people are building something. Why am I not building something? Then I was looking, okay, maybe as an international student, maybe you can't do all those like that something that I thought of. It would be four to five months to realize technically, OPD is a golden behavior. Like you can start the company. Like you can start the company on your own. You can work on your own and all those things. So I was like, okay, let me build something. What could I be?

Like I didn't have an idea. I didn't think it was not a part of the template. Yeah. So I was like, okay, we struggled a lot to get a job, but I got it a little bit easier by having a system around it. So I was building like, I did everything like kind of like a system. So why not come convert the system into a product? So I launched something called shorter work. So which is a proper business that I was doing on OPD. So that's how it started.

So like I started, I was working on it for nine to five. I do my full time job and like five to nine, I was doing this, right? Like it didn't make much money. But it's just trying to, in fact, I was the cash putting it here and burning the cash that I get it this time. It was happening like that. Then like OPD was about to end and OPD was about to end. I was kind of disappointed because, okay, no, I can't do this anymore because like OPD's ended and some OPD would still do it, but there are a lot of nuances. You have to make money. You have to pay yourself and all these criteria to match all the criteria. So because of that, I couldn't continue my startup after December because my OPD like entered in December. And yeah, that's how that's how it happened.

Then I started. So the thing is like, I started sticking to it. Okay, I was done. Let me like pause everything. Let me take some break from everything. I was not enjoying my life. Let me take break. I can went back to the normal night. Like after going to the normal nine to five for four months, I realized, hey, what am I doing with life? So the cycle repeats every time for me. Like I just like, what to say? Well, what is that word? I just do something like multitask a lot.

And I get burnt out. And then I'll think, okay, let me give up on everything. I'll be go on a trip. Let me do something else. Then I realized, hey, I prefer having multitask, like I prefer having a lot of stuff on my plate instead of chilling. I go back. It's just like kind of like a never, never ending cycle. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's why, like, my LinkedIn is kind of confusing. It's even confusing for me. I think since it happened past two, three years, I can remember what happened. If you ask me, in two years, I'm pretty sure I'll forget what happened.

But yeah, this is how it happened. I do want to double click specifically on the my real product piece just because it's just something that to me from the outside seems like just the perfect intersection between something you can build in that utilizes your skills and expertise. But that also helps so many of us, right? Because we're all really cut from the same cloth, so to speak. And there's almost like an Ikigai type validation that I at least from the outside that I sense, you must have gotten from that, right? So can you highlight maybe a couple cool projects that came out of that? Or maybe even some unexpected growth that you saw in yourself as a consequence of my real product? Yep. In fact, there's exactly that. I think you got the recipe, right? So what

happened is I was thinking back like how I was getting a job. I was posting content on LinkedIn and people are reaching out to me. So whenever I open up my LinkedIn, if I see a DM, I'll try to reply or get on a call with them. I never charge people or like I don't like like what to face. I don't believe my one or one is going to be like a worthy enough for you to pay me. I'm also at Opmate Hater. So yeah, we're a line on that. I'm not a Opmate Hater. Like I still do use Opmate, but I use it for free. Like I don't ask you to pay if you're going to pay any for something other resources that you're trying to do, but not for my time. Because like, I don't know, I didn't understand the logic. So I was like, you know, see, maybe I said, top mate, top mate, Hater,

I just meant, yeah, the paid paid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I agree. Other than that, it's just like a coffee chat, right? Yeah, we love coffee chats. I have nothing else coffee. Yeah. So I was like, I started doing it. Yeah. So I started like a lot of people charging. So I thought, why not do it for free? Like I have some hacks. So I started doing a lot of cons. Like, I remember one week, I like, I opened my calendar. I was like, Hey, guys, come and book it. Let's just talk.

Something I was in the mood to do something since I was bored with life. Like 50 people booked my book. Oh, that I didn't expect. So it was like, it was free. Like, so like, I start, I went there. So I was talking to people, I realized something, even though it seemed easier or like, intuitive for me, people didn't realize this. So that's how what happened is like, I'll tell what happened. Like in how I got a job is not because I did a project or learned a skill or I was an expert in something. The difference that I brought with my portfolio was when I built something, I built with a cause and I talk about it enough in the interview. Like, for example, like, yeah, everything that I built or at least whatever I put on my profile will have a cause.

Like for example, one of the final projects that I built is like, uh, so onion, uh, supply chain forecasting there. I think I talked about it in many places, but I did it because I've seen it happen. Like I've seen like my family or any Indian family, like taking a look at onion prices going up and down. They're like, Oh, where did it go? Where did it go down? Like, it's a deep factor of life, right? In fact, it are like more than like gas prices and like, uh, gold prices, at least, at least that's what I remember back then.

So because of this, I always wondered what happens. Like why? Why is it going down? Can we predict it? I did a project in predicting it. It's not an amazing project. Like there are much better projects out there. Like it's a super complicated, but I had a story behind it. Like I'm telling this story, right? Yeah. So if you have a cause, if you have a problem, and if you're trying to solve the problem, you don't have to be smart. You don't have to solve the problem 100% but the reason of why you're trying to solve the problem and how you're trying to keep it back to that person for faces, the problem is what I always like was fascinated about. So this is one project I did. And another one was I built a tool called Daddy Oda. It's

like a community blogging community platform. People can come and like share stories with each other. I built that. So I talked more about that and realized that's why we're getting a job. They're going for a job and we become a data scientist not to implement linear recognition. We are going there to solve a problem. They're going there to bring out and maybe subconsciously or without knowing I was just following that in my own life and that helped me.

I thought that's the hack. People are not doing that. Everyone is like, hey, here are the five projects. You copy this project, get it. No, that's not the thing. Like you have to pick a problem and you have to solve a problem. If I tell you what problem to solve, that's not going to help you. There is no motivation to get it. So what happened is one random day. I thought, this is the solution. Let's try it out. I put a LinkedIn post.

LinkedIn post saying that hey, data scientist data analyst. I don't know whether we can find it or put it like two, three years back. Hey, data scientist data analyst. So this is the thing. This is how you should do it. Instead of just giving advice, I thought, hey, I'm creating a community like a Slack channel where we can do this together. I'll help you six weeks. We'll sit together and we'll see what problems you have and we'll try to do it.

I put this message on LinkedIn. Thousands of people started commenting. Like, hey, add me in. I was like, oh, I never expected it. I spent 20 30 feet. Like I'm not saying on, like the reason I put this, I want someone to text. I see that. But I know it's for the thousands of people to text me saying that. I mean, this. Then I was like, okay, let's join. Let's start doing that. I think four 70 people joined that six week thing that we started. That's crazy.

Yep. So that's like, yeah, the community started doing that. And it's like, I was dedicating a lot of time to help people to do this. Okay. So what, what problem do you have? How do you find a problem? Where do you look at this problem? And how do you validate a problem? This is not someone, something an engineer will think, but this is something that is a should think, but you're not thinking, right? You're hired to think for this. Like you're hired to pick up problems and solve a problem. Let's just do that in real life and see what happens. So based on the response that we got, that's how like initially I just named it like, let's build a real product, right? Like, because like, what is real? A real product is something when you solve a problem. That's it.

So it was kind of like that, then it became the brand. It was like, okay, why can't it be my real product? Because people are building their own real products. So like my real product, and that's how my real product was born. So it's kind of like a workshop that. So now coming back to the context, what is my real product? My real product is like a kind of four week workshop where I help people to pick a problem, learn AI. So right now we are focusing full on AI. So when we started, we started like data science machine learning projects as well. But later realized AI is the high, but everyone wants to learn AI and sporty new. We only started focusing on AI products.

So the tagline was, don't just build projects, build products. So it's like, we picked a problem, build a, we build a product, we deploy them, and we go and test it back and even market them. So this is how it went. And people come up with amazing stuff. When I mentioned this, even though you are an engineer, if you join my new product, people start thinking like an entrepreneur. And I like that. I like seeing that entrepreneurial kick that people are bringing in. And that just gave me that motivation. Okay, let's do more of this. That's how it happened. Yeah. That is such a cool story. Like, there is just so much about that that I like a lot. And you hinted on most of the biggest things. But the only thing I want to highlight that you did kind of semi hint at this, but the benefit of picking a niche problem that

only you have that is not just found on like a Kaggle data set is that it also makes you stand out, right? Because when you're an interviewer, you've seen like 80% of those projects just on every resume or at least some related version of K means clustering or whatever. Like, you know, the data set, you've just seen it before. So when you have somebody that comes in and confidently says that, Hey, I had this problem. So I built a solution for this. I went and found the data, I went and cleaned the data. And when you show that you've done the entire life cycle of that product that you mentioned, not just like the middle piece, which everybody focuses on in terms of the actual application of the model or whatnot. I think that is just such an easy,

nice way to differentiate yourself in the best way possible, which again, to your entire philosophy of breaking the template. It just, yeah, it makes sense that, you know, you came up with that because that from what I'm sensing, that's just kind of, you know, what you've stood for. And yeah, man, finally, just imagining, you know, you being, or just being on the ground level with these people that are trying to build stuff, helping them out, being in the weeds of their solutioning.

It's just so cool. Like, it's the type of thing that I enjoy doing a lot. And a lot of it is also very analogous to, you know, the primary reason I started this podcast even, right? Well, what's the first step here? Like, right, I have a problem. What, how can I, where do I start? We're trying to fix this. And I think in a lot of ways, from a lot of what you've done is, along those similar lines, not gatekeeping, this technology, helping people realize that AI is, in fact, for everyone.

And you know, it's not like a doomsday thing where it's going to replace you and such. So, you know, that's really cool. I do want to also maybe shift gears a little bit into your story of, and again, this will probably hit closer to home for most international students in the US, given how it works with our, with the OPT that you mentioned, and then with the H1B, which is literally a lottery, which you had a very public not getting the lottery for the third time. And then, but what was probably more impressive and very rare, I guess, would be that you just completely seem to land on your feet and turn out better if I can say that versus at least on the accent, maybe you can correct me. Yeah, yeah. But just from, you know, the POV of somebody that's

kind of in the system still, I think that the key takeaway with me from that entire experience was that don't let life happen to you, right? You need to be happening to life, which you've done that in a way that's, I mean, I honestly can't even wrap my head around how one would start to do something like that. So, I let you speak through maybe just from your POV, was the UK, I don't know, is it called the work visa, but is that something that you had been planning for? And like, just kind of walk me through that specific journey in terms of having a backup for the edge. Yeah, sure.

So this part, I don't want to sugarcoat it a lot. I fortunately, I made it happen somehow for me, but it's brutal. Like, there are like, there is a lot of luck involved in this process. And also, like, there's a lot of like, rejections involved in the process, which will make you break anywhere. And so, maybe I can give a, if you ask me an open-ended question, I talk a lot. So that's a disclaimer. So you're like, no, that's good. We want that. Yeah, that's perfect. Okay. Yeah, sure.

So what happened is, as, as you know, as everyone knows, like, I didn't get hit and be picked in March, April. The thing is, the second time when I didn't get picked, I was kind of ready for it. I was like, okay, there is a chance I might not get it. Like, because I didn't get it two times. It's a third chance. What if I don't get it? But I always thought, if I don't get it, there is an alternative, easier alternative. Like, my company will support me with something, like, which could be like, real Chinese, a global company will send me somewhere, or it could be like, people speak, right? Hey, do another masters, or do something else.

I always thought, like, there were options and like stuff. So the day I didn't get it, I still didn't like feel bad because I thought there's options. People have done it. It's not so complicated. But personally, I was so unlucky. I didn't have any of those options. Like, I didn't, I, I can't pursue any of those things. I've realized it like a month after that. So it's kind of like a dead, like an end street from dead end for me.

So I was like, okay, what am I going to do now? I couldn't think. I was like, exploring everything in Canada, UK, or go going back to India. If I go back to India, what would be the paycheck that I'm getting? Will I even get a job? Because I know a few friends, like, who graduated from UK, Germany, and stuff, they went back and they were getting a lot of restrictions because you're overqualified right now. Either you work for like, very less pay.

When they still won't take it because you're still overqualified, they know that you leave. There's such fact, so these are always coming from every direction. Like, so I was exploring all the parts. So I liked Canada and UK route, mainly because like, Canada, because it's closer to US. US became home, especially like I was continuing from Toronto. And New York is there, so it'd be easier for me to come and look for opportunities, not for a job, but generally. And even UK felt nice because it's that new life altogether, like we experienced like, from Asia to America, why not Europe? I was thinking from that thing. I couldn't think about Germany, France, and stuff, because I prefer living in an English speaking country. So I was like, it's a no for me by default.

So I was looking at the options. Even US, I was looking at any other options, if there is any other option in the US, I was exploring. Then I realized, okay, I have to make it real. I don't know. There is no, people are not helping me because it's like, it's not like many people have explored being in this position before. What I started doing is like, I started interviewing for a few companies, like there was like a team that I interviewed in Canada, which is like a part of my company. Internally, I texted them, I was like, hey, I see that you're hiring in Canada.

Let me interview and all those things. There were eight rounds, eight round of interviews, and then they rejected me. I was almost like, hopeful. When I went to the final round, I was like, okay, Canada, Canada, I'm gonna go to Canada. I kind of started my mindset. Okay, how am I gonna go? Should I book a U-Haul? If I book a U-Haul, how much would it be? Like, I was planning out of there, right? I wasn't like, they rejected me. I didn't understand.

They rejected me. Like, because when I say eight round, the eight rounds were kind of like, the eight round was like a formula, you know, it felt like they're already hired me, but they were like, I thought I had got it, but I didn't. Okay, it's good. So Canada is a dead end again, because I was trying to look for Canada. They were like, what's the means and stuff, but I was exploring UK. When I was exploring, it gave the same thing happen. Like, I was like, interviewing for another company. They started the new everything, the Mexican visa situation and stuff, and everything happened. And I wasn't the final doubt. I even got a congratulations email, and they took it back, saying that, okay, sponsorship could be a different, like, a difficult

thing. We're not going to. I almost gave up, but the one good thing was, so there were two options. The number one is since I graduated. So this is the lucky part since I graduated from Columbia. So I spent like 88,000 dollars on it. So I'm eligible to get this visa called high-product change. So which is like, if you guys are from top 100 universities globally, you can get it. So I know that, okay, somehow I can get the visa. Maybe I can do something like that, and I can go to UK and look for a job. I was still looking. Then I was applying for startups.

Since I was like, kind of like spent two years working in AI, I picked a lot of AI products by then. So I had a strong portfolio for AI. So I was looking for startups, and it was applying for all the AI engineer roles. And fortunately, like, I think I takes one random, I didn't get anything. One day I sat and texted 10 YC companies, and I got interview calls from four of them. And like, I think three of them were interested. They were like, okay, let's like, try it out. Let's go for the next round and all those things. And yeah, finally, I landed and offered in one of those companies. So one of the companies took me in, and I told them, hey, if you sponsor me, I'll come and something like that. So can you be able to sponsor work visa?

And then again, we're happy to do this. We have like three seats in the sponsorship. Why not? Because it's much easier to sponsor in UK. It's not lottery. So they're like, okay, so I came in and worked visa. I worked in that company as a senior AI engineer. It's a YC backed startup, the CDC company, growing and trying to expand. So I was like, working there and came here. One reason I didn't want to stick back in the US is for the visa situation. If I sit back in the US, I would, I wouldn't be able to like build my own thing. Like, I wouldn't be able to explore other stuff because I, if I even like, let's say hypothetically, I get action, right? Action visa is the most restrictive visa in the US. And you're basically losing your freedom to build other

things just because you want that. I see the dream. I see everyone from India wants to get that, but I didn't want it. Personally, I, to be honest, I felt good a little bit because I didn't get it. But it's kind of like a, like a guilty pleasure, right? Like, you don't have any different story. I know what you mean by that. Yeah, it's like it's good to not even have the options, right? Because you, yeah, exactly. If I've given the option, I don't know whether I would do this. So that's why I thought, okay, it's good that I'm coming back to London. I was coming to London. So I was working there after coming here, after working for the startup, I again, that calling, right, what happened like two years, three years, I was like, okay, I'm here. AI is

changing the world. And people are building really fast. And why am I, I paid back my loan. Like, even though it was big, I paid back my loan in the last year. So it's like, why am I still working? Let me try out something on my own. I was like, I quit my job. And this is the other two lucky, but one thing that helped me was the visa, the backup visa that I had, the high potential visa that I had, I always had that in my, there is a backup for people who don't have that. It's a problem. But even though I had it, I didn't use the for the first time. I still got the skill to have the visa. But it's a very edge case. When people try to see the story and they try to fall over, that's why I don't try to glorify it much. Because like, you might get it. If you are

skilled enough, and if you are proving to a startup is comparatively easier, because if you're in a startup, they're interviewing for a startup, you're directly talking to a founder, who is the decision maker? If you convince them, you're basically convincing the company to sponsor you. It's much easier. There's no legal team and all those things. They still can sponsor. It is possible, because there is a roadmap that I followed. You see the roadmap from my journey. But I wouldn't still, it still wouldn't glorify it, because it's still like you have to get lucky. You still have to convince them why you are the person that they're going to sponsor. Because that's just a friction, right? People don't like this one. 100%. I would even go so far as to say that if

probably those companies, if they're just seeing like a cold application from somebody like you, they're just like autorejecting. This isn't even a UK address. Why should we even bother talking to this person? So yeah, like the barrier to entry is probably the highest that it can be. But I mean, my takeaway though, and hopefully for our listeners, the takeaway here is that sure, sometimes it can appear that way, where the barrier is really high, but you just got to try, you know, like this point sitting around doing nothing. Ultimately, it's the taking action that can you know, make you feel lucky as you're at least to some extent, I feel like definitely being modest.

But I get though where you're coming from when you say that, right? But even besides that, didn't you say that for the skilled worker visa, you can still get it even if you don't come from like an Ivy League school. Is that right? It doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, that is if anything is my takeaway that skilled worker visa is almost similar to H&B, but without a lottery and the bar is much lower. So I should be like, yeah, it's capped at 85,000. I don't know whether it's capped. I'm not sure about that, but there is no lottery. And yeah, and the process was much easier. I got the visa within like two, three weeks. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I feel like this is, I'm especially happy that you agreed to come on the show because this particular piece is,

I just don't really know a single other person that has done this. You know, and I feel like, of course, there's a lot of incentive for people to be in the US. I'm not denying that. But there has to be like, I'm willing to measure there is a big knowledge gap around this, right? Like people don't even know that this is something worth pursuing. Like we're not sitting here claiming that everybody can do it. It's so easy, right? We're not saying that, but you can try, right?

Because I know for a fact, for a lot of people, they can't go back to India because of reasons that you just said, or I mean, the reasons don't even matter, right? If somebody does not want to go back, let's just respect that. This is an option. This is such a real option that, you know, people just don't know about at all. And I'm so glad that, you know, I was able to pick your brain and, you know, truly thankful to you for sharing your story.

No frills. I had no sugar coating, no gatekeeping in terms of how it actually panned out for you. Do want to circle back to something we were covering in the beginning around like just the future of AI. I know you're also, you've become a founder recently. So maybe we can hit both of those two birds with the same stone. What do you think lies up ahead in terms of where we're heading? Apparently every single day, there's a new cloud feature that wipes out like entire SaaS industries at a time. So where from your POV, where do you think we're headed and what is in store in the near future for us? Yeah, I think it's not like I'm going to bring a new perspective.

Maybe I consolidate the entire perspective towards people that are trying to delve and maybe I put my spice on it. So what I think is, let's start somewhere, right? Like the popular, most popular say AI won't replace you. Yeah, AI won't replace people using AI, he plays you. I disagree. Do yes. Yeah, I love it. Yes, I hate that. Yeah, that's just the most normy mindless thing to say in my opinion. But sorry, I'll keep you going.

So, you know, these are the people who just use chativity. They're living in 2022, right? 2022, I agree. That was the case. Like people didn't stop, right? And if you are a big fan of anthropic, I'm a pro anthropic. I don't know, I'm not supporting them politically or something with product twice. Like I like the product of city. Yeah, I mean, is objectively the best tool as of recording this, it's important to say. And of March 2026, I do agree with you, yeah, anthropic. I believe they continue to be. Yeah, I believe they will contribute to be.

And there is competition. I like that there is a competition as well. So like, so what I think is that I even wrote a article on this. I feel like there are four layers to AI, right? The number one layer is people who don't even use AI, obviously. These are the people who are going to get replaced. So like, I think they are already replaced, right? The next set of people are these people that we just mentioned, people who use AI to do something in the way and say work. They're in better shape than the people. I don't completely disagree with the statement, but these people are still in danger. Like they are already getting replaced because there is third layer, which is like people who build AI. Like these people don't just use AI, but they also know how

to build stuff using AI, right? Like they improve the workflow, they improve the AI products, right? Kind of a AI engineer and stuff. So those will be the third layer. And the fourth layer is people who identify the gaps that AI can't do and go and do that thing, right? So will the fourth layer people build AI? Will they be replaced? I think the world has to tell. Hope not, but I don't think we are there. It might, but they are the last people to get replaced. But I think this is the order of like people, how they are going to go. So maybe I'm super influenced because like I joined the startup, I started like working as a senior AI, you know? And like I started like shooting products, I saw how companies build and what's changing every day. That made my mind say, okay,

I realize just being an engineer is not going to help. Like just being like a friend and engineer, back and engineer, like software engineer is not going to help. So I think this is something that everyone's trying to say. Every engineer is now becoming a product engineer, which means they're not just building, they're talking to people, they're talking, understanding the requirements, they are like building for the people, not just like us, and they're not just the engineer.

So which we will say kind of in the third layer, right? Or if you have to go to the fourth layer, you have to exactly understand what AI can't do. Like AI can't maybe, I don't even know like it's very difficult to find what AI can't do today with the anthropic almost doing everything. But I think I think this is my philosophy. My philosophy is AI is going to replace everyone, but it's going to replace in four layers. You would decide which layer you want to be.

Irrespective of you, let's say you're in the layer one, it doesn't matter. Try to be in layer two, try to be in layer three, try to be in layer four, and maybe you'll be in a better position today. And yeah, I really like that. I think I tend to agree with the way you're presenting that. I guess the thing that I will add and the thing that has caught me by surprise personally is just, it seems now to your point around that you're not no longer writing software, you're writing products. And I feel like at some point, I never really appreciate it fully up until right now that writing or making a product is now the easy part, right? Like how do you get people to use it? That is not a challenge that I don't think anybody has currently figured out.

Sure, you have your real bot farms that like farm 10 reels or anti-talks every day across like 10 different channels. I don't necessarily know if that's a solution that still feels very much like a hack to me so far. But that is something that has at least personally surprised me where yeah, like everybody can make every app now, right? So the distinction between something that people use and something that just you use. And I think that also then answers your question to some extent around what does what can AI not do? I think AI cannot have taste. But that's also so ambiguous, right? So nebulous, what does taste mean here? Is that kind of would would you is that making sense a little bit? Yeah, I agree. I think I think AI, what AI can't do is taste or like kind of like

preference, right? Like that's for your what do you mean by that? Let's say like, yeah, I can build a good software, but it can't build a good software. What Naman wants, right? That is because what Naman wants, even like a really good engineer still doesn't know. It's a process of like figuring it out. It's like the process of exploring stuff, right? So that's what AI might not able to do. And the question is there right now, when there is a world where do you really want that taste, right? Or are you okay to adjust with, okay, this is good enough.

True. Yeah, no, that's a good point. And how many people care how deeply about that taste, right? Like, so once you start introducing these variables, yeah, it's the cracks do start to appear. But I mean, maybe what we can definitely align on is that I don't think there has been a more exciting time to be alive, like pretty much ever throughout even history. Just in terms of how quickly we're advancing, it's crazy. Like I'm just here for it. I just love it so much. And I feel so blessed and lucky to be in circles where like by no means I'm at the cutting edge of anything. But at least I'm at a position where I understand what's going on, I can able, I'm able to comprehend, relay it to the masses, thankfully with the support of people such as yourself who are very much on the cutting

edge. So I mean, that is also really a segue to, you know, hurry this, I have these conversations a lot and seldom do I feel like there this information dense right when a person just brings so much to the table, to the extent that I've felt here today. And again, like for our listeners, if you'll take away one thing from this conversation, I believe it's that if you see a template, step one is to break it, right? Never ever follow templates. It's the perfect recipe to get ignored. And so with that truly, thank you so much for taking the time. This has been so incredible. And you know, we will, we will have to have you back for a more focused conversation just around the AIPs because I know that we barely even just crashed the surface with that. So thank you so much for

taking the time. No, thank you for inviting me and like going through my profile and understanding and asking all these things. I've been there in your shows, like I do a lot of podcasts. I know how difficult it is to do a good one to make it seamless, make it conversational style. And thank you for giving me the spotlight throughout this entire podcast. You're doing great. And I like the quality of thing. I think if one thing is bad at this video, the quality I brought, there's no proper studio setup and stuff. So like this, how is this a studio? This is so I promise you, my friend. Thank you. I appreciate that. Awesome. It went well. Like I know, I feel invited to many podcasts. And this one, I really like because it feels like just like a conversation.

It doesn't feel artificial at all. Thank you. Appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you.