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In 2018, I had a visitor visa to the US rejected. First of all, I was not prepared for any of this. I was just like, how bad? 10 days with you, right? I didn't show up. And then they asked me, are you married? At which point, I was just completely beused. But obviously, it makes made sense later. The way the law is written, every applicant begins the visa interview on clock. clock. Like, understand until proven guilty.

Like, understand until proven guilty. Well, the reverse. You're guilty until you can prove that you're innocent. I'm Naman Pande. This is the Ready Set to Podcast. And in this episode, my guest is Duden Freeman. Duden is a former United States diplomat with the US Department of State where she served for over 9 years. Currently, she's tearing down the opacity throughout the US visa process using Visas 101, which is the first educational platform for visa applicants by former visa officers.

visa applicants by former visa officers. In today's episode, we go over everything you need to know to maximize your chances of getting approved for your US visa. that includes visitor, student, work, and even extraordinary ability visas. We even go over a much requested segment around exactly what to do and what not to do when your visa is rejected. rejected. Your visa interview is 180 seconds, maybe 240 seconds, right? You have had access to amazing opportunities all because of those 240 seconds, which in the end led to a yes visa decision. How big of a difference does body language play? And have you ever found that it has really moved the needle from a rejection to an acceptance or vice versa? versa? Every single morning, walking into that

Every single morning, walking into that concert section, I said a prayer. God, please let me make the best decisions today. Allow me to be fair. Allow me to be just. Subscribe on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast apps for weekly episodes featuring high agency individuals and daily bite-siz knowledge clips from those episodes on YouTube and Instagram. All I told them was, "I'm sorry you don't qualify for the visa.

sorry you don't qualify for the visa. Here's your letter." And then they would leave the window very confused and I couldn't explain it to them. I have to talk to the next applicant. And now, without any further ado, here's to them. Welcome to the only podcast in the world featuring stories of high agency individuals who are just a few steps ahead of us. Dude, welcome. Thank you so much, Naman, for having me. I'm really curious to explore the origin story so to speak of US diplomats and visa consular officers. So can you share a little bit about your journey around you know how or what made you want to get into this what the training is like you know and just what happens before you find yourself seated at you know in a different country and and like taking interviews of people that are trying to

interviews of people that are trying to go to the United States. Absolutely naman. So I myself am an immigrant. Uh, I was born in another country. My family and I, we moved here when I was a child. And I actually did not become a US citizen until 2008, believe it or not. So, you know, I'm an immigrant, you know, just like everybody else who I interviewed for visas. Um but I think it really brought a unique perspective uh to the work that I was doing because becoming a diplomat in 2012 literally 4 years after I became a citizen was a life-changing experience for me and I had always been thinking I think deep down about one day you know becoming a diplomat. I grew up around diplomatic children um you know in my life I went to school with diplomatic

life I went to school with diplomatic kids and I went to an international school in the United States so I was really exposed to multiculturalism to overseas travel and I myself was living abroad right for my childhood that's what it felt like to me and so growing up with kind of that multicultural mindset and having gone to school and studying abroad in France. Um, I deep down really wanted to be able to live overseas and have a job where I wouldn't have to worry about getting a visa. visa. So, yeah, becoming a diplomat solved that problem. The State Department took care of a lot of my visas. Um, and I got to live abroad. So, it was truly a dream

to live abroad. So, it was truly a dream come true when I became a diplomat in 2012. 2012. Okay. And it really, I think, um, made me feel appreciative for having that opportunity in a country where I wasn't born. Um, that, you know, I accepted as my adopted homeland, if you will. Uh, and the process of becoming a diplomat was not easy. Uh, you know, there were lots of hoops to jump through. uh there's a written exam that you have to take you know and if you do well on the written exam then you proceed on to the next phases and of course it ended with an oral exam and that year you know tens of thousands of people applied to the state department to become a diplomat and only a couple hundred were chosen and I was amongst you know that group. So it truly felt special and I remember having tears

felt special and I remember having tears in my eyes um the day you know I passed the orals we were pulled into this room and officers who you know I think were senior diplomats with the state department uh gave me the good news and I I remember literally like crying when I found out. So it was a very very emotional thing for me and uh of course having passed the orals didn't mean you get an immediate job offer. So they said congratulations except it was congratulations for passing the orals because once you pass the orals you are um having to go through a medical clearance and a security clearance and if all of that goes through then you're placed on a list of eligible um individuals who can be offered a job.

um individuals who can be offered a job. And so thankfully I got my job offer uh and uh I accepted and a couple months after you know joining my A100 class that's what it's called uh when you join uh the state department as a foreign service officer. Um when I joined my A100 class I uh knew immediately I wanted to go to a country I had never been to before. Uh, I wanted to experience something really new and exciting. Uh, and uh, I wanted to use my language skills. So, I speak French fluently. So, my first assignment I got was in Bamako, Mali. I don't know if you've heard of that country.

you've heard of that country. I've never heard of that before. There you go. So, it's a country in West Africa. Okay. You know, it is one of the poorest countries in the world sadly. Uh but it is a beautiful country with so much history and so much culture and I was the economic officer at the embassy. I was the only economic officer. So I was advising you know our front office, my deputy chief of mission and my ambassador at the time of you know economic relations and what was going on in the country. So it was a fascinating tour but that was my start you know to to in the state department. So that's so interesting from already what you've laid out. First of all, yeah, the story of you getting that opportunity was I could tell how emotional that must have been just, you know, putting myself in

been just, you know, putting myself in your shoes or at least trying to imagine how I would react to that. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, I don't even blame you for having tears in your eyes. Um, but I think what's uh what's what I'm curious about is what you just described your role as the economic adviser or economic officer. I believe you said that sounds just completely different from the duties of a visa officer. So absolutely. absolutely. So is that something you can change internally or did that fall into your lap or how did that work out?

lap or how did that work out? So the way I'm so glad you asked this question. So you know when you join an A100 class um as a as a US diplomat um you are told first of all you have a chosen career path if you will. It's it's called a cone. So you have a chosen cone. Um, and my cone was economic. So I chose the economic cone. And so I was lucky to get the chance to do economic work on my first tour. And my next assignment was in Madrid, Spain. So I I did do a concert tour of course in Madrid, Spain. And even if I wasn't consular coned, I loved my consular tour because I think, you know, as an immigrant, as someone who has been on

immigrant, as someone who has been on the other side of the visa window, as I like to call it, you know, I've been on the other side of the visa window as someone who, you know, came to the US on a visa, then got a green card, then got citizenship. um I can totally empathize and you know have a deeper understanding of what that applicant that visa applicant is going through. And so yes, I did do a consular tour and in fact I liked consular work so much that my fourth tour was in Atlanta at the Atlanta Passport Agency. Okay. and I had a managerial position as the only foreign service officer at the Atlanta Passport Agency and I was

Passport Agency and I was I was a supervisor. So I I really enjoyed my concert tours. Yeah, that's so cool. Wow. When you get picked to do the consular tour that you said that everybody has to do, do they also kind of train you or like do did do they just give you materials? I'm very curious as to the you know background work that one has to put in before you like sit on the chair. Very good question again because you know obviously people who join the state department they don't need a law degree right so you know immigration is based on the immigration and nationality act right which is a law passed by congress signed by the president um and so we had to be trained of course so there's a class called conjen

class called conjen at the state department And every single consular officer before they go serve um as a visa officer or as an American services uh officer, they have to do conjen. And it's actually mandated by Congress that when you take conen, you show up to every single class. You can't miss any of the homework. You can't miss any of the tests. Um, we do some practice mock interviews. You know, our classmates will pretend to be visa applicants and, you know, you pretend to be the officer. They do have some windows set up um at the State Department training facility that, you know, they make it look like a consular waiting room and a visa interview area.

waiting room and a visa interview area. So, you do kind of get a feel for what it's going to be like, but nothing can compare to the real thing, right? Yeah, for sure. Abs, absolutely. The good thing is nan when when you become a visa officer for the first time, time, if you have a really good manager and I was very lucky, I did um they will make sure you shadow other officers on the visa line. Okay. I so much. Yeah. And then when you start doing your own visa interviews, you have an an experienced officer kind of shadowing you and giving you feedback. Um the the most important thing is being able to listen to someone's story for three to four minutes and decide

and decide which is hard. It is hard to do. So So yeah. Yeah. And you know to that story I think that segus really well into really just a question I've had forever. And I guess just maybe I can share some context around why I've why this question is something I've been so invested in like forever. So um in 2018 I had a visitor visa to the US rejected. Um the interview was fairly short. I was just out of college. Um I had just started my job and I was just trying to visit my brother who lives here or who lived here at the time and I was asked a few questions just basic questions around um you know what I do job etc.

around um you know what I do job etc. And then I remember at least in my head where things started going south was when I was asked how am I funding my trip and I remember first of all I was not prepared for any of this. I was just like how bad can it be? It's just an interview right I can just show up and things will be fine. But of course, little did I know that you can't just show up. You have to prepare for these things. So I was like, oh yeah, my brother is funding my trip. And the person was like, hm, okay. And then they asked me, are you married? At at which point I was just completely beused like why are they asking me this? But

why are they asking me this? But obviously it makes made sense later. And then so yeah, so it was obviously rejected and I think the reason was that not enough ties to Homeland. I think there's like a number for that 2 to 4G or something. I don't know. You you'll probably know better. All of which is to say that um the way I look at it, I think there are probably similar to like a driving test, right? So there's instant disqualification like you're just done over and then maybe there's red flags and maybe there's like some orange flags. So I guess the question is can you maybe give an example of first of all if this is even right like is this how you work or and if so what would be

how you work or and if so what would be an example of like an instant disqualification versus a red flag versus like maybe an orange flag does that question even make sense I know I rambled for a while kind of kind of I mean look I I think you've highlighted a very important point right which is you weren't prepared and it was an interview and you thought, well, how bad could it be? And I think that's the mindset of a lot of folks. I do feel like that's shifting a little bit under this. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a lot more noise about visas and immigration. So things are shifting shifting which I'm, you know, I'm happy that it's shifting to the perspective of, oh, maybe I do need to prepare for this a

maybe I do need to prepare for this a little bit more than, you know, I would have five years ago. Um I think one should always prepare for a visa interview and you were just going to see your brother. Um well you're now in the US Nan right? So you did your studies here in the US correct? correct? So so it's it you know it's good. I'm glad to see that your student visa then didn't get rejected. Yeah I prepared very hard for it. I didn't sleep for three weeks straight.

didn't sleep for three weeks straight. Yeah. All I did was, you know, have my bullet points nailed down. I I Yeah, it's it's honestly traumatic to even think about the Listen, I I totally understand and I and I get it. I I really do get it. Um, so what I always tell people is your visa interview is maybe 180 seconds, maybe 240 seconds, right?

180 seconds, maybe 240 seconds, right? It's could be a 4-minute interview. That's literally 240 seconds of your life and it could be a lifechanging 240 seconds, right? I mean, you're in the US today. You have a wonderful job. Look at us, you know, doing a podcast together. You have had access to amazing opportunities all because of those 240 seconds. seconds. Absolutely. That's which in the end led to a yes visa decision, right, for your education.

decision, right, for your education. So I want everybody to take those 240 seconds seriously if it means a lot to them, right? If it's if it's going to be a lifealtering moment for you, you really do need to take it seriously. And remember, you're paying for this visa, correct? So whether you get it or not, you're paying the fee. That fee is for the US government to process your visa application to have an officer conduct an interview for you and to determine if you're qualified for the visa. So, you're paying for it. It is your visa.

you're paying for it. It is your visa. Why not prepare and feel like you're more in the driver's seat than in the passenger seat? Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. How can you feel in the driver's seat? Well, the best way to feel in the driver's seat is to understand what the officer is trying to assess. Yes. Exactly. Yep. I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah. And so you can kind of get into the mind of the visa officer and you can prepare for your interview.

and you can prepare for your interview. If you understand what that visa officer is trying to assess, then you're going to do much much better in that visa interview than not. Like when they asked you, "Are you married?" And you're like, "What kind of a weird question is that?" Well, they're asking you if you're married to see what ties you have. Exactly. Exactly. Right. To your home country. So, it's actually a very valid and legitimate question. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So if you had known all of that, you would have gone into that tourist visa interview with a different mindset and you would have probably done much better and maybe even had gotten approved for your visa than not and you would have been able to visit your brother and I don't know how that would have changed your perspective in terms of applying for a student visa

in terms of applying for a student visa later on, you know, but you know maybe it would have it could have had some impact you know on your perspective. So I always recommend prepare as much as you can especially today. uh you need to really understand what is going on because because you know you mentioned red flag orange you know yellow you know um so obviously there are hard ineligibilities okay okay right if you've been drug trafficking you know if you've gotten involved in you know other things like um if you got arrested and you were criminally convicted or or part of a criminal organization, etc.

or part of a criminal organization, etc. They ask all of those in the DS16, all the questions where there's a yes or no answer, and then the moment you put a yes, there's an explanation box that all of a sudden appears on the DS160 or the DS260 depending on the kind of visa you're applying for. Gotcha. Gotcha. Those are probably leading to some ineligibility potentialities, right?

ineligibility potentialities, right? Okay. So besides that, let's say you answered no to all of those. Yeah. And of course, you have to answer them truthfully. truthfully. Absolutely. Absolutely. Answer them truthfully. Let's say you answered no and no box popped up and that there's nothing for you to explain and you're applying for a visa like a tourist visa or a student visa. And both of those visas are subject to section 214b, which is what you were talking about.

which is what you were talking about. Okay. of the immigration and nationality act. So section 214b essentially says to the visa officer that the applicant needs to convince the visa officer that they're qualified for the visa and that they have non-immigrant intent. intent. Okay. Yep. which means I have no intention of leaving my home permanently. permanently. I am going to the US for a short visit. Now a short visit in for a student could be four years, six years maybe with OPT, you know. So obviously they they're looking at at it a slightly differently. They have to because an 18-year-old kid obviously is not going to have really deep ties to their homeland. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Right. The way a 35year-old adult may will have. Yeah. Um, but they're still

will have. Yeah. Um, but they're still looking at opportunities in their home country to see if after they finish their studies, there's going to be enough of a pull for them to go back home, that they're not going to try to remain in the US without authorization. Right? So, that's ultimately what the officer is trying to assess. and and then pretty much every time you say something that signals to the officer that this is not the reality of what's going to happen, they're just you're almost incentivizing them to um reject your visa. Would that be an accurate thing to say? So, so the way the law is written, every applicant begins the visa interview unqualified.

begins the visa interview unqualified. Okay, I see. kind of like the pro innocent until proven guilty situation, right? right? Well, the reverse. Yeah, the reverse. Sorry. You're guilty until you can prove that you're you're I mean, it is the complete reverse mindset for visas, right? So, you don't even start at a neutral point. Okay? You start not qualified and then you have to move your way up to qualified as the visa interview progresses. And I have to tell you that is just how the law was written. The officers aren't trying to be mean.

officers aren't trying to be mean. They're not trying to be harsh. It's just the way the law was written. I just feel like this entire line of work I I I I just keep trying to put myself in that position how what I would do, how I would behave and it it just feels so almost otherworldly like I don't I wouldn't even feel like a human. I feel like you know just to have that much power did that ever get to you in in a way or did you ever have any reflections around the power dynamic? tried. I I tried, right? And so I tried really really hard to remind myself that every applicant is a human being with a life of their own, aspirations of their own, a family of

aspirations of their own, a family of their own. And I really did my best to offer empathy even when I was rejecting a visa, right? You know, sometimes I had just the nicest people who were not qualified for the visa and I had to reject, you know, their their visa applications. And doing that, you pulled on my heart, you know, very deeply. And you know, a couple times, I mean, I I remember going to my to my visa chief's office and saying, you know, I had to deny this visa, but I, you know, I I wish I didn't have to.

I, you know, I I wish I didn't have to. Um, but it's just the way the law is written and there wasn't much I could do about it. And so, you know, I I had to do my job, but I also could be human. And every single morning walking into that concert section, you know, I I'd said a prayer personally, you know, God, please let me make the best decisions today. Let allow me to be fair. Allow me to be just because I'm dealing with real human beings and I I want to be the best officer that I can be, you know, that day. Um because again I I have been on the other side of the window. I understand what that feels like.

understand what that feels like. Um but at the same time my my top priority as a visa officer was protect national security. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was that was my number one priority. It was my duty. It was why I was doing this to begin with. The number one priority always was protect national security. We were the first line of defense, right? So before anyone even lands in the US and does anything bad, right? They have to talk to a visa officer and get a visa. I'm the first line of defense. The second line of defense is the CBP officer who they talk to who's going to decide if they let them in or not. A visa is a permission to knock on the door. It doesn't allow you entry. It gives you permission to

you entry. It gives you permission to knock on the door. The entity that allows you entry is CBP. CBP. CBP. DHS, Department of Homeland Security. State Department does visas. The Department of Homeland Security is the entity that decides to let you in or not. So, we were the first line of defense. But the moment you convinced me that you are not a national security threat, so you answered no to all those questions and you know, everything checks out. You're you're you know you have a clean bill from that perspective. Yes. Yes. Now my job is to determine if you have legitimate travel. Okay. Okay. So are you a legitimate visa applicant?

So are you a legitimate visa applicant? Does does your story fit with the requirements of the law and can I issue your visa? Yes or no. So facil facilitating legitimate travel was also a critical part of my job because the majority of people are not criminals. The majority of people have a clean bill. Right. Yeah. The majority of people are decent people. So now it's time to determine do they qualify for the visa. So I really like the deep dive that you shared around the visitor and F1 visas, right? And what that entails the decision for that. Similarly, if if you could also help us break down the you know on your side of the house what what the requirements are for the H1B or maybe the L1. So more of the work visas.

maybe the L1. So more of the work visas. Um that that would I think be really helpful because a lot of our listeners would fall under those brackets and now H1B applicants have to interview mandatorily. So that was not a thing even until last year but that is a thing now. So yeah, what what can you share with our listeners about those two or like just work visas maybe? So a lot of employment related visas H L O P um you know EBS. Mhm. Mhm. A lot of those visas actually all of them come with a petition requirement. Right. So, okay. With an F, a B1, B2, tourist business visitor visa, student visa, F1, J1 exchange visitor visa, M1, also student, but you know, for um professional uh type education, you know, like if you want to become a chef or a pilot, you

want to become a chef or a pilot, you need a M1 visa. Um, so those don't come with a petition requirement. So for those visas, the FJM, B1, B2, the only entity you are dealing with until you get to the US is the State Department. There is no petition. You know, you need a visa appointment. You maybe you need some additional documents for the FM or J visas, but ultimately you're dealing with the State Department. you're you have a visa interview and everything gets decided in that visa interview with a an H, an L, an O, a P or um you know the EBS, any of the EBS or immigrant visas, you have to have a petition that was approved approved by the Department of Homeland Security, USCIS.

USCIS. Then you get to make a visa appointment and you talk to a consular officer. So I think the most important thing for folks to remember is what here's the thing when I talk to visa applicants today and I am no longer a concert officer. Right? So I I have my company Visas 101 is a platform uh Dean and I launched and the thing that we are all about is now lifting the curtain if you will as much as we can. Yep. To show visa applicants, you know, what that decision making is like for the visa officer. Because when I was a visa officer and I if I denied a visa, I could not tell the visa applicant, I'm denying your visa because I don't think you have strong enough ties, you know, you don't want to own a

ties, you know, you don't want to own a home, you don't have a family, you, you know, you don't make a good salary at home. I don't feel like you have enough to come back to. I couldn't tell them all of this even if I was thinking it, right? I'm putting it in my case notes, but the the applicant that didn't get to see any of my case notes. So, all I told them was, I'm sorry, you don't qualify for the visa that you're applying for under section X of the Immigration and Nationality Act. Here's your letter.

Nationality Act. Here's your letter. And then they would leave the window very confused, you know, they're like, I don't know why my visa got denied. Yeah. And I couldn't explain it to them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I have to talk to the next applicant. Exactly. So now that I'm on the other side, right, I I have left the window. I am able to talk to visa applicants, go, you know, look at their cases, look at their uh DS160s or 260s, um look at their application materials and say, "Here are some potential red flags. Here are some possible areas that you need to really look at and think about how you might want to explain."

about how you might want to explain." Um, so I'm actually able to kind of tell them these are some areas that really need improvement because from a visa officer's perspective, this is what they're going to be thinking. So, it's actually it's wonderful to be able to share that perspective with uh visa applicants. But when I hear visa applicants say, "Oh, I got my H1B petition approved. Oh, I'm just going to go for my visa stamping." Mhm.

go for my visa stamping." Mhm. It makes it sound like you're going to the embassy or consulate to get a bureaucratic piece of paper. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Or a stamp in your passport and it's just, you know, something you have to do and you're just going to go and you're going to walk in and you're going to get it and you're going to get out. That's not the the case. You know, you're still talking to a visa officer.

you're still talking to a visa officer. You know, you're still talking to a US diplomat who's going to look at your documents, who's going to interview you, who's going to determine if you are who you say you are, if you have the qualifications you say you do, right? If anything appears fishy, like you are not really aware of what was in your petition, if if you have been in the US, you ran into problems with the law, maybe you got arrested, maybe something happened, or maybe there were too many RF, you know, for your petition approval because of, let's say, things you did while you for a student. Gotcha. Gotcha. Things can come back and haunt you, you know, in that visa interview. And so, uh, the last thing I want for all of your listeners, okay, to think that it is just a simple bureaucratic step in

is just a simple bureaucratic step in the process, something that they don't need to prepare for to walk in. Um, you know, my my partner Dean and I, we conduct mock visa interviews. We help prepare visa applicants for their visa interviews. And I sometimes work with really qualified, top-notch applicants, and even them, I find things that they can do, you know, to be able to strengthen their visa interview prep.

strengthen their visa interview prep. Even if everything is legit legitimate and everything checks out, there are things you can do to ensure it's a fast and quick and painless visa interview. You know, um especially if you're super wellqualified, but if there's any potential red flag, you have to know what they are. And you yourself may not be able to figure that out on your own. Um, but you have to understand what the potential red flags may be so you can mitigate them and explain them while you're at the visa window.

while you're at the visa window. Exactly. Yeah. Just get ahead of it, right? Before it before it surprises you so that you can be like, "Okay, I knew this would happen. I planned for it. So, here's here's my here's my action plan." So, and I love that. Yeah. I think it makes it makes what you do so much more valuable because of you having the knowledge, you know, the specific knowledge of how it works behind the scenes cuz you've been there, done that, and not many people can claim that. And I also love that that just gives so much credibility, right, to what you're doing at Visas 101, which I I I do have like

at Visas 101, which I I I do have like an entire segment just planned on that. So, we'll get to that. Um but in just just really the last question here and when I was like preparing for this and I reached out just through some of my listeners and one of the most commonly or the most probably the most requested question was um people were really curious to know the impact that body language has. um when like right from the moment where you you know your eyes land on the person they're walking to you cuz normally there's like a short three four step distance between where the queue ends and you know like the the the window. Um so right from that point how big of a difference does body language play and in your anecdotal

language play and in your anecdotal experience have you ever found that it has really moved the needle from a rejection to an acceptance or vice versa? So with visa interviews, one of the most important things to remember is your your first judgment. Like the first essential impression you give to the visa officer is on paper, right? They're looking at it on their computer screen. That's your DS 160 or 260, whatever it may be. So, that is that is literally the first thing I want to talk about because because there are a lot of people who help people fill out forms and some of them are legit and they know what they're doing and they're able to, you know, work with you to put your answers on the form, but there are other people who fill out the form without necessarily

fill out the form without necessarily getting a lot of input from the applicant. applicant. And then if the applicant does not review the form and allows the person filling it out to submit it on their behalf, behalf, they the applicant is responsible for what goes on the form because it is the applicant's form. The filler has nothing to do with you know the applicant, right? right? Yep. So that is the first thing I want to highlight because sometimes mistakes are made on the DS160 or the DS260 and it goes back because every time you fill out of an official US government form, every time you talk to a visa officer or a US government official, you are communicating with the US government government and that communication there's a record

and that communication there's a record of it and that record stays in the systems. So your form never gets deleted. deleted. The case notes of the visa officer never get deleted. So every time and and filling out a form is communication. You are communicating with the state department. And so I always recommend even if you're not the person filling out the form, number one, make sure the person filling it out for you, helping you out, knows what they're doing.

you out, knows what they're doing. Number two, make sure you review that form in detail to ensure that they have written everything the way you would want it to be written, right? Because ultimately you're responsible. So that is the first impression the visa officer gets of you, your DS160, and any previous case notes. So, if you did a prior visa interview, like for your F1 student visa, I'm sure the officer looked at the case notes for the B1B2 visa, right? So, they're going to do that. They're going to look at the case notes of any prior interaction you've had with a counselor officer.

you've had with a counselor officer. Now, then, of course, you walk up to the window. Body language is critical. I don't know if you were at, you know, when you and I uh were at the Open Atlas Summit, right? Um I don't know if you were there for Chuck Garcia, Professor Chuck Garcia. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was. You know, he talked about the criticality of body language, right? He talked about the importance of your tone of how you speak even besides the words that you choose you know your demeanor your body language um your tone all of that of course becomes important because as as visa officers who've interviewed thousands and thousands of visa applicants you know you have to make a

applicants you know you have to make a very quick decision right you have three to four minutes to make a decision and you look at the person and the way that they hold themselves and the way that they carry themselves. And you, you know, become a person who's able to understand through your instincts of having done this so many times whether somebody is telling you the truth because of the way they're their demeanor is, whether they're, you know, trying to hide something. um whether they're you know afraid that you're going to ask whatever the next question is going to be like you can look at somebody's body language and get a lot out of it. Now the difficult part becomes becomes some people may also give off some of those vibes because they're incredibly

those vibes because they're incredibly nervous. nervous. Exactly. I was just going to say one other random question that was um requested by the listeners was that so obviously for B1, B2 and F1 you're almost um as you said you're incentivized to um demonstrate that you have non-immigrant um tendency or I think you use incentives. incentives. Yeah, there you go. Um is it the same for like the work visas as well? like is is the are you incentivized also to be like no I'm only here for the duration of my H1 and then I'm I'm planning to head back or how would that how does that work? So every visa category is different. Um for an H1B you don't need to demonstrate that you don't have immigrant intent.

don't have immigrant intent. It's not like the B1, B2, or the F1. For the H1B, it's it's, you know, it's okay to have immigrant intent. Um, it's okay. The most important thing with an H1B H1B is to obviously be the person you say you are on paper, right? to have the qualifications that you said you do and to ensure that there is nothing in your file that can raise red flags about you following the rules of the visa. Okay, Okay, and following the laws of the United States, States, okay? So if there's any record of you not following the rules of a visa, not for example working without prior authorization, authorization, you know, these kinds of things may raise red flags and it they can in the end become, you know, potential issues

end become, you know, potential issues in your case. Um, but you know, the majority of H1Bs, they do well in the visa interviews. I think that's typically the case. I still always recommend to prepare for the visa interview just in case because you just don't know. Um, and the visa officer, a former visa officer who's had a lot of experience with H-1Bs, you know, can look at your file, can review your case with you, um, and can help you prepare for your visa interview. Now, for other visa like L's also, same thing. they're not necessarily um you know subject to immigrant intent but but L's are temporary in nature.

temporary in nature. So obviously it is important you know in your visa interview to be able to articulate that your your stay in the US is temporary in nature. Um you know that you're not a permanent uh hire in the US as so to speak. you don't expect to retire in the US on an L visa, right? Um so there are things that you need to be able to do even if you're not necessarily subject to immigrant intent um you know to that part of the law. uh you still have to be able to speak appropriately and present your case you know convincingly in that matter with I think the most important thing becomes is the company legitimate does it truly have offices you know on

does it truly have offices you know on both sides uh in both countries um did you have the work experience that was required at home in your home country before being transferred over to the US and do you have that specialized knowledge set that is required of your position because otherwise could the company not have hired someone in the US to be able to do the work that you're going to do. So that all of that does become a part of the the questioning you know for that visa. Um, and then also of course if it's a managerial position, you know, do you have the managerial experience and what are you going to bring to the table when you work in the

bring to the table when you work in the US? But last but not least, you know, is this a position where you're going to be able to train people and then leave, right? Yeah. Because again, it's temporary. It's the L visa is temporary in nature. So, um, L's do get renewed, don't get me wrong. you know do get renewed but uh obviously it becomes a little harder you know to convince that it the visa is temporary in nature when you keep on renewing an all visa um but yeah and for for EBS uh where it's an immigrant visa the immigrant intent is you know you have immigrant intent you're declaring right you're applying to be an immigrant so what the what the officer ends up looking for is slightly different in each visa category. Yeah, that's what I'm realizing that

Yeah, that's what I'm realizing that that's what makes this, you know, even more um interesting. But yeah, you know, really appreciate that deep dive. I think we've covered all of the major uh visa categories at least that most of my listeners would be interested in. And again, I just feel like all of this information that you just shared is I think it's just pure gold. I wouldn't even know where else to go for this. And um yeah, which is why um you know, it's so cool what you've started building out there at with Visas 101. Um something that I was curious about that I wanted to ask you was um in the time that you've been doing this, I'm sure you would have had just I don't know I I

would have had just I don't know I I just I'm a big fan of success stories, you know. So do can you maybe share a couple anecdotes of maybe somebody that was going into the interview probably was not going to make it but because of your help they were you know able to secure that. If you have any stories like that I just really love listening to them. You know you know I do and I think you know if I if you remember at the beginning of our of our talk I I talked to you about how there were some visa applicants where I had to deny the visa because the applicant wasn't prepared.

because the applicant wasn't prepared. and things like for maybe for your first B1 B2 if you had properly prepared for it maybe you would have gotten approved 100%. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know even if you were young and you know you weren't necessarily funding your trip. You know there are things that you maybe could have said to convince the officer that you know why you're going and you're prepared for this interview and you know how you're going to be able to demonstrate you don't actually have immigrant intent.

don't actually have immigrant intent. You don't want to move in with your brother brother in the US, right? you have a life back home in India. Um so one of the one of home in India. Um so one of the cases that I remember uh is an student visa applicant. Uh this individual had previously been denied multiple visas, multiple student visas, visas, you know, to to study. Um they were denied multiple student visas in the last five years.

visas in the last five years. Wow. Um, and you know, they had not prepared with a former visa officer. You know, they had gone in on their own. It was hard for them to understand why their visa kept getting denied. Um, and so the first things we did was to kind of talk about that, you know, why I why I thought their visas kept getting denied. denied. What was the reason? like, you know, it was harder for them to demonstrate that they did not have immigrant intent. Um, the country that they were from, the conditions there were not very optimal. Uh, you know, job opportunities were lacking. Um, income levels were low. you obviously the country where you live ends up having a lot of impact of course um on kind of

lot of impact of course um on kind of your outlook on life and you know if you if you look at the overstay rates and that's one of the numbers that I think visa officers are very much aware of you know how many visas were issued to this nationality and how many of them ended up overstaying their visas meaning staying beyond what was permitted in the United States and they ended up getting jobs under the table, you know, and sending money back home to their families simply because opportunities are lacking in their home country, right? Um, everybody wants a better life for themselves. So, you know, as a visa officer, you have to look at all of those issues to be able to determine, okay, what kind of a life does this person have at home that

does this person have at home that they're not going to want to, you know, stay in the US, even if it means not having proper documentation, you know, to stay in the US. So with this individual, individual, the moment you get denied your first visa, it becomes so much harder to convince the visa officer that you're qualified. qualified. Remember what I told you about first impressions? impressions? Yeah. Yeah. You know, when the office rejections, they're seeing prior rejections. So they're seeing it on their computer screen before they even talk to you.

screen before they even talk to you. Wow. So, you start at a very negative place, right? If you've had multiple prior rejections, so the bar gets so much higher. Yeah. Um, and the nice thing about this individual was they did not immediately reapply after their last rejection because the moment like let's say you were rejected last week and you apply again this week, the officer is going to be like, "Okay, someone who is trained like me talked to you the week prior." Yeah. for the same visa category, for the same visa application to do the same exact thing and they determined you were not qualified. So what changed between last week and this week, right?

between last week and this week, right? So you must have a really good story to tell for why you are coming back. Even if you're paying for that visa interview, right? you like you paid to see again you know this you get you get a right to a fresh look yes but you it is on you to be able to say well actually you know I I I didn't explain myself properly and here here's the issue you know you have to come with something otherwise if it's the same exact thing guess what you're probably going to end up with the same exact result it's a waste of your money. It's a waste of your time and you know it just ends you with two rejections now instead of one. So if nothing has

instead of one. So if nothing has changed, I would wait some time until something does change. So this individual had waited, right? So they went to work, they had a couple years of work experience, they ended up, you know, building up their resume and they did their undergraduate in their home country. They worked, they built their resume and then they ended up getting admitted to a master's program in the US. Well, now they had a different story, right? they were able to explain, you know, why they've been doing what they've been doing, why they need this master's degree, why they need it in the US from that particular school, you know, and how they were going to fund their studies.

they were going to fund their studies. So, being able to turn your story and share how you've changed over the last few years and how you've really um improved your candidacy for the visa application really makes a big difference. So, where I came in and helped this visa applicant was being able to share, you know, what the visa officer is looking for. Yeah. How those prior rejections might hurt them, but how they can use those prior rejections as an advantage to talk about how their story has changed and how they're a much better candidate today than they were a couple of years ago.

than they were a couple of years ago. And so doing mock interviews and practice interviews and figuring out how you're going to tell your story, I think becomes critical. So that's where we come in. Wow. Yeah. And on that same note, I will be sharing in the episode show notes your LinkedIn, the Visas 101 website. And of course um anywhere that students or anybody really professionals would want to find you, you'll be very easy to find just using the um you know episode show notes. Juden, thank you so much for taking the time here today. It's truly been such probably one of the more um memorable and special episodes that I've ever done. really which you know just learned way too much. Had no idea just the entire world that exists behind you

the entire world that exists behind you know just as you said so beautifully those 180 to 240 seconds and how it can completely change somebody's life they definitely changed my life and yeah um I really appreciate that you're still continuing to do that you know despite not being on that chair or you know not being directly involved with the interviews themselves. So, thank you so much for all that you do and yeah, really looking forward to continuing our collaboration. collaboration. Nan, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed the episode myself. I enjoyed talking to you. Thank you for your wonderful questions and I look forward to, you know, continuing to stay in touch and and watching your story evolve.

evolve. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you. Take care. That brings us to the end of that fascinating episode with Duden. I was blown away by exactly what goes on on the other side of the window when you're appearing for these interviews, which I have. And I've seen both sides, rejection as well as approval. So, it hit a little bit extra different for me to go over this with her. If you would like to support me, the easiest way to do that is by subscribing on YouTube and leaving me up to a fivestar rating on Spotify or any of your favorite podcast apps. Something that goes a really long way in terms of moving the needle for me is if you share any of these episodes or clips or shorter form videos with your

clips or shorter form videos with your friends, family, anybody that might benefit from them. Help me break out of small channel hell. Every single subscribe matters, every single share matters and every single like matters as well. And also, I guess while you're at it, please feel free to comment. Catch you all in the next one. New episodes every Wednesday.