How To Pivot To Product Management From The Medicine Field (or Any Field) - w/ Jackie

to set myself up to go to medical school. I ended up shadowing a dermatologist and I think it was around maybe six to eight weeks every Tuesday and Thursday, something like that. And I remember thinking, I don't really like going into the hospital on a day-to-day basis. I I can't really picture myself doing this kind of work. I'm Nam Pande. This is the Ready Set Do podcast. And in this episode, my guest is Jackie Henning. In part one of my two-part series with her, Jackie shared super actionable tips and tricks for anyone looking to break into product management roles. In this episode, which is part two, she takes us through how she herself accidentally fell into the PM role and almost unknowingly pivoted from the medicine field into the PM field. If you're an aspiring product

field. If you're an aspiring product manager that at least sometimes thinks about product, but are from a completely different industry, you'll probably be surprised by just how simple it can actually be to break into product. And by the end of this episode, I promise to leave you with at least the first few steps in order to do exactly that. This was kind of like the segue into health tech because we were collaborating with, you know, some human factors engineers at UT Austin, some UX researchers, some uh designers, and some engineers. engineers. The clinical stakeholders, as you said, because you know, obviously they're trying to make sure that no health rules, quote unquote, are broken and that it's a good product. But sometimes maybe you're tempted to make a decision

maybe you're tempted to make a decision for the product that might not adhere to what they have in mind. We started with one middle school and then we had scaled the program um up to four different sites in Waco, Texas. In line with our theme of learning from high agency individuals who are just a few steps ahead. My goal with this episode is to help anyone looking to switch into PM roles from a different industry and equip them with the clear starting few steps to do so. If you don't have users using your app, then you can't help them become healthier people. people. Subscribe on YouTube and any of your favorite podcast apps for weekly episodes and daily clips from those episodes on YouTube and Instagram. And now, without any further ado, here's Jackie.

Jackie. Welcome to the only podcast in the world featuring stories of high agency individuals who are just a few steps ahead of us. Jackie, welcome. Hi, thanks so much for having me. I want to start off with somewhat of what is now a tradition on the podcast, which is that what is your controversial opinion/h hot take around breaking into PM? I know because you're so deeply involved into this, you must have a few, but can you, you know, help us get the ball rolling with just one of the your takes? takes? Absolutely. Yeah, I think this is a great way to kick off the podcast. Um, and I think there is kind of a lot of misinformation about there out there around how to break into product. And just to kind of get it out there, I

just to kind of get it out there, I think the the main thing that, you know, I see a lot of aspiring product managers focusing on when they want to break in is certifications. I hear that all the time. time. I've heard that as well. Definitely. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Like in my DMs, they'll be asking me, "Hey, Jackie, I want to break in. which certification should I get? Um, should I get an agile certification or should I get one of those product manager certifications? Sometimes they're offered through universities and there's so many offered online nowadays, but that's definitely something that I get asked about a lot.

something that I get asked about a lot. My take on this is, you know, a certification certification can't really it can only take you so far. Mhm. And I think the main thing here is, you know, anyone can take a course online and get a certification. I think what really sets somebody apart um and it can really set you up for a career in product management is actual product experience. experience. Um I know it's nothing like revolutionary. Um it's not like a golden ticket into the uh field at by any means, but nothing can replace um good old experience in product.

old experience in product. No, I think that's such a wonderful call out, especially because of just kind of how transferable it is to even other domains, right? So um something that I was doing back in the day when I was in graduate graduate school was trying to apply for project management roles. And for whatever reason I just developed this notion that I have to get a PMP. If I don't have a PMP there is just no point to anything. So the first and only thing I need to do is get a PMP. And I never ended up getting it just because yeah, I think to to your point, how far does that really get you and and also what are you really learning from that, right? You're just watching videos that

right? You're just watching videos that you know might or might not add any value to that. So yeah, I think that definitely rings true and I think that's also a decent segue for um I know you kind of accidentally broke into product management yourself, right? So I am curious to explore how that happened. Absolutely. I was going to say you definitely did your homework because that's how I like to kind of kick off this story and actually that was one of your posts on LinkedIn where I discovered you actually. Yeah. Which had that and I was like that's so fascinating because here I have these whole swats of people that are just on their knees to you know where's my opening point and here and I I know this is just how life works right

I know this is just how life works right you don't always get to choose but I'm sure there's a yeah interesting story there. I mean, just that's one of the life lessons that I share with anyone, even outside of product management. I think if you're following your passions and what you're interested in, usually that'll take you to where you're kind of meant to end up in the first place, not necessarily chasing a title. Um but to kind of take you to the um from the beginning to the end um you know my whole life when I was growing up when I was in middle school and high school I had always pictured myself going to medical school.

going to medical school. I thought that that was the path kind of laid out for me. And you know for whatever reasons whether that be like societal pressures or um you know parental pressures to become a doctor that's what I thought my prescribed path was going to be. And so when I went to undergrad, I was a premed student. Thankfully, I didn't major in biology like all of the other most other premed students. I majored actually in nutrition science, which I think a lot.

nutrition science, which I think a lot. Yeah. The reason why was because I was really interested in, you know, how the things you put into your body can affect your overall health and energy and how you feel. And so I kind of had this idea going into undergrad that I was going to differentiate myself from, you know, my competitors or whoever else applying to medical school by saying I was going to take kind of a more preventative lens to That's smart to healthare.

That's smart to healthare. Yeah. So anyways, um I was continuing on with my coursework, taking all of the premed u prerexs, right, to apply to medical school eventually. And um it was my junior year and I remember thinking I want to shadow a physician. It's just you know one of the things that they recommend all um you know premed students do when they're in undergrad cuz I was kind of like going through my checklist of things like checking off everything to set myself up to go to medical school. And so I ended up shadowing a dermatologist and I think it was around maybe 6 to 8 weeks and I shadowed him maybe I think every Tuesday and Thursday, something like that. And I remember thinking, you know, I

And I remember thinking, you know, I don't really like going into the hospital on a day-to-day basis. I I can't really picture myself doing this kind of work. And honestly, like by the second or third week, I was like, I'm not enjoying this shadowing experience at all. In fact, you know, I remember cuz a lot of these um appointments that I was shadowing, they were very preventative in nature, but it was like the same thing every time. It was him essentially saying, you know, are you wearing sunscreen?

you know, are you wearing sunscreen? Please buy sunscreen. That was like the main thing that's drilled into my head was, please wear sunscreen. And I actually do I wear sunscreen every day now. But the point is I remember after that experience saying I I don't feel connected to this anymore and I want to look into other paths that I could take. Um at the same time I actually was um kind of exploring some other projects. I had actually started a nonprofit with a couple of my friends on campus.

couple of my friends on campus. I saw that on your LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No way. Yeah. Yeah. I swear. Yeah. What was that about? Yeah. Yeah. So, um like I said, I was studying nutrition and I had a couple other friends in the program and we had this idea to start a um student organization where we would go out to different um areas or it was mostly schools, but there was some um like after school programs that we were targeting mostly in middle schools. And we would go and share different nutrition education with those students. Gotcha. Yes. So a noble cause. Yeah. Exactly. And it was mostly targeting like um you know lower income, lower socioeconomic um status students and just kind of a nice way to give back to the community.

nice way to give back to the community. And so we started with one middle school and then we had scaled the program um up to four different sites in Waco, Texas. Yeah. By the time that I had graduated. But it was an incredible experience because I remember loving the um the whole process from you know having a vision of what we wanted to see become a reality. um you know kind of pitching this idea to different students on campus and different professors to get their buy in and then ultimately build up this program over time and like I said scale it up to the four sites that we were able to get to by the time I graduated. graduated. So it was kind of like that was all

So it was kind of like that was all happening on the side and it helped me realize like that is more in line with what I love to do. I love working with people, coming up with creative ideas, and then scaling this to, you know, a population of consumers consumers or or users, right? And so that's when I decided to really kind of look at other careers more seriously. Mhm.

careers more seriously. Mhm. Um the summer before my senior year, I remember thinking, you know, if I'm not going to go to medical school, I need to start thinking of other careers that I could get into. And typically with a nutrition degree, there's only like one kind of path laid out for you, which is um becoming a dietitian, a registered dietician. Yep. And so I knew that was an option, but again, just knowing from my experience in the hospital, I I didn't want to be working in a hospital every day and kind of sharing that kind of same advice on a day-to-day basis. I wanted to do something more creative, right? right? Um I remember looking at different internships and there was um this is kind of just like a funny story

kind of just like a funny story actually. it didn't amount to much. But I remember applying to what I thought was a marketing internship because back then in my mind like business was basically either marketing or sales and so I looked up marketing internships cuz I didn't know anything about product management. management. I mean they are big parts right don't get me wrong but yeah I can see how you would you would be like that those are the two broadest pillars that are worth attacking. So that part makes sense.

attacking. So that part makes sense. Yeah. So, I was like, "Okay, my new game plan, if I'm not going to go to medical school and I'm not going to become a registered dietician, I'm going to look for a marketing internship cuz I was like, I don't really want to try sales. I think I'll try marketing." Yeah. Yeah. And so, I applied to some and there was one that I got invited for um you know, like that initial interview for. Mhm. Mhm. And it was on site. So, I went to this location and and met up with the interviewer and I realized that the job description was a a little bit misleading. misleading. It was actually an internship. Not even

It was actually an internship. Not even an internship. I think it was a full job and it was essentially the people like in Walmart who are essentially walking around trying to sell you like Spectrum or like internet um subscriptions. That was essentially what the internship was, advertising. And I was like, "Okay, that's fascinating. That's not what that said, that's a little misleading. That's not what I thought I was signing up for."

thought I was signing up for." Um, but all that's to say is, um, I I didn't really know anything about the business world or the corporate world. And so I had a lot of learning to do. So what I ended up doing instead was um applying to UT Austin and I ended up going there for my master's program. Gotcha. And what did you go for? What what what was your program? program? I ended up going to UT Austin for um nutrition science as well. Actually, so you stuck to the the stuck to the plan, right? I stuck to the plan, but the reason why was because I figured I would kind of branch out and make some new connections.

connections. And so my goal wasn't necessarily to learn more about nutrition. I mean, I thought it was interesting, but my real plan here was to branch out, meet some people in Austin, um, network a little bit, and then kind of see where that would take me. And, um, when I was at UT, I actually had an amazing opportunity to join a research lab that was developing a product to help primary care practitioners set personalized nutrition goals with their patients.

goals with their patients. interesting like with an app or a portal or what was the medium for that? Yeah, it was essentially um a web app. Okay. Okay. And you know when I joined the project it was very much in its infancy stage. I see. So there was nothing developed yet. They had done a couple of I think like qualitative analyses of different um you know papers out there on the vi viability of a product like this on the market but they hadn't started any sort of development on the idea no competitive analysis no user research at all and so me coming into this as a as a graduate research assistant assistant you know my kind of role in this was more so on the data analysis the side or at least that's what it was supposed to be.

be. But I found my role kind of evolving. Um we were collabor because we were collaborating with um you know some human factors engineers at UT Austin, some UX researchers, some uh designers and some engineers. And essentially I helped um you know my research lab develop a prototype of this product from the ground up. And we had gone through several stages of generative interviews with different consumers of the product as well as um you know both from the provider standpoint and like the patient standpoint. Mhm. Um but then we also started doing uh uh prototype tests as well and started iterating on this prototype after you know um one or two or three of these different interviews and I found

these different interviews and I found myself at the end of this experience or towards the end of my master's program thinking I wonder what career this is like I want to do what this is right yep I don't know what this is called and so that's when I started doing some research online I started talking some to some different people and um that's when I first learned about product management and so that's kind of the story of how I learned about product and then I graduated and then found the job I'm currently in. So was that job still um kind of the a continuation of the research or was that like a separate job unrelated to your duties while at UT Austin? That was the same. So okay so you it just kind of kept going

okay so you it just kind of kept going pretty much. Is that is that right? Um you're talking about my current job or um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh no. So my current job is different. So Okay. Gotcha. But it's still with health tech where you're doing similar things to the ones that you were doing at correct. So once I graduated from UT Austin um I that's when I decided to actually start looking for a job obviously cuz I had finished my master's program. program. Yeah. and I was looking for different product manager roles and then um started applying and then ultimately decided on one with the the company I'm currently at. Amazing. Okay. So that is so fascinating for the biggest reason just in my head being that this to me sounds like you were at the time beginning to do product management duties without even realizing

management duties without even realizing a that these are product management duties and b what these duties are in the first place. So I am curious to um you know understand how you like went about doing that. So I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. there's this new thing it needs to go out to people. It needs to be helpful. How did you first come across just now concepts that I'm sure that are like bread and butter for you but at the time they would not have been right. So how did you approach learning them at that point where you're not you know there's no course you can take it's all selfarning right. So what was that experience like? I'm really curious to explore that. H that's an

curious to explore that. H that's an interesting question cuz you're right like I like I said I didn't have a guide book that told me how to iterate this prototype prototype and it's so interesting to even think about how anyone like I don't know how I would do that to be honest with you. I think if I put myself back back then, um I really think I it was more like in intuitive thinking because I was just kind of under the mindset of how can we make this product as useful as we can for our users both from the provider standpoint and for from the patient standpoint. Mhm.

for from the patient standpoint. Mhm. And so everything I did um all the questions I asked in our interviews were always focused around like you know understanding their pain points and trying to figure out like okay how can we make this even better for them. for example, in like the prototype iterations like how can I take you know that piece of feedback that that provider gave me or that you know patient gave me make like a quick change in the prototype and then test it again in the next interview and and see how that evol like how that changes the how the next interview goes. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. just product iteration right now that we know what it's called actually.

that we know what it's called actually. But it's so interesting that you were doing that at the time just almost in a vibe product manager type of way which I don't know if that's a real term but sounds like that's what you were doing at the time. I think learning you know it kind of happens like that too where you kind of intuitively start doing something and then it's just like later when you actually figure out like oh there's an actual term for that process.

actual term for that process. Exactly. And I think this is one of my favorite bits of product management. And we have to keep in mind that I'm very much an outsider to this particular industry. It is something that I'm aware of, something that I was fascinated with a little bit back in the day, but never something that I, you know, actually made a point to truly explore. But something that always felt really interesting to me that it was that there is a degree to just how far being high agency and you know really just pure intuition will take you in product management that is just different from most other tech fields like if say you're a software developer how much can

you're a software developer how much can you intuitively do here right like it's all critical thinking you have to know your stuff but your you have to know your stuff but this is something that just always fascinates me about product management is that it's almost a gut thing. Sometimes it can be. So, So, yeah, definitely. Um, I think that's true, too. And I love that you brought up engineers as well. You know, whenever I approach my conversations with other team members, I I always try to like include them in the product the product making decisions. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Because I think you know to your point like it is a bit of a gut feeling.

point like it is a bit of a gut feeling. It is a bit of intuit intuition and I don't think I'm the only one that can come up with those on my own. I think it's really great to tie in like what my engineers are thinking or what my designer is thinking and kind of evolve the product around that. Absolutely. And then because you've been in this specific niche of product management, what are some of the like can you just help contrast uh health health tech PM with general PM for our listeners? listeners? Absolutely. Um, yeah, there's different flavors of product managers. I think from the health tech perspective, it's interesting because, you know, you're not only trying to develop a product

not only trying to develop a product that users enjoy using, you also have another responsibility, which is helping them be healthier, right? like you know I would actually say that the stakes are a little bit higher in that regard. regard. I would agree. Absolutely. Yeah. Because you have this responsibility now to again like I said not only create a product that looks and feels great but it's actually also providing or leading to health outcomes. Um typically you know this means you're going to be collaborating with different stakeholders than kind of like your traditional stakeholders. Um, you know, of course, you're going to have your business stakeholders in any product manager role, but in health tech positions, health tech PM roles, you also have your clinical stakeholders. And you know,

And you know, yeah, what does that mean? Sorry, how Yeah, great question. So clinical stakeholders, that's kind of like a broad bucket of folks who have some sort of subject matter expertise in how you know how to provide um high quality care, okay, to your users. Gotcha. And so in my case, you know, this is going to be a mix of gastroenterologists um or also just people who are credentialed credentialed to know how to provide quality care to people. people. Interesting. I see. So it could also depending on you know the type of app you're working on. It could be like psychologists, other medical doctors, dieticians, things like that. Okay. Yeah. And do you ever is there ever just you know like a clash of heads with with the

know like a clash of heads with with the clinical stakeholders as you said because you know obviously they're trying to make sure that no health rules quote unquote are broken and that it's a good product but sometimes maybe you're um tempted to make a decision for the product that might not adhere to what they have in mind. Is does that ever happen? happen? Absolutely. Yes, it definitely does. And you know this is where the role of the product manager becomes really critical uh because you know our clinical stakeholders want our members to be healthier. Typically you're going to have other stakeholders who want the product to be as seamless and easy to use as possible. And to your point sometimes it can feel like those two things are at odds with each other.

two things are at odds with each other. Exactly. And so it's really important, you know, to for any product manager in the health tech space to have that really tight-knit relationship with your clinical stakeholders and with your business stakeholders. So that way you can understand the concerns from both sides sides and use that to make the best decision moving forward. But it's also interesting too because you know if you don't have users using your app then you can't help them become healthier people. And so that's so true. Yeah, it definitely is like um a a fine line here here um because you want them to use your app and enjoy using it, but at the same time, you got to provide features that help them achieve health outcomes.

help them achieve health outcomes. Yeah, I love this. Like this is just so fascinating. it it's just I just genuinely had no idea and it now feels kind of obvious in retrospect but yeah I had just never until just now stopped to think how product managers would operate within like the healthcare/halth tech space so yeah I'm just you know so thoroughly enjoying this conversation the other question I had on this kind of you know segment here is what part of your team has or what percentage of your team generally at Your company has a background in healthcare which like can we agree that you have a background in healthcare? Is that like a fair thing to say? Yes. Okay. So what yeah what percentage of your team shares that or kind of semi

your team shares that or kind of semi shares that if that makes sense? M um yeah I mean I think to say you have a background in healthcare it can take a a couple different flavors right like if you've studied any sort of biology stuff yeah yeah um you know that can be one flavor of having like a healthcare background um but I think it varies right like I think the more you're in the healthc care space and the more experience you have in that space that also becomes like quality experience that that can ultimately translate to healthcare. Yeah, Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. No, I was just curious just because of um you know just thinking about how many just general purpose product managers so not

purpose product managers so not necessarily health within the health space can potentially be thinking about segueing or looking at roles that are more that have more to do with health tech and maybe you know how they can bridge that gap. But in my mind I feel like a more pertinent version of that question is if we even remove the health tech from this the like problem statement. If there is a young person you know that is looking at looking at breaking into product management um what would your advice be to them like what are some of the first couple steps maybe that you would recommend that they take to you know achieve that goal.

to you know achieve that goal. That brings us to the end of our episode with Jackie. Check out part one if you haven't already. I got some really good feedback around that and a lot of you all love that. So hopefully you like this one just as much. If you would like to support me, the easiest way to do that is by subscribing on YouTube and leaving me up to a fivestar rating on Spotify or any of your favorite podcast apps.