How to Build a Global Health Career (Public Health Master’s, Oxford & WHO Africa) - w/ Dyuti

Jyoti Sen did not study science. She started out with a fellowship in public health battling tuberculosis in Bihar. Today, she works at the World Health Organization. I took up economics but I ended up working in the global health field. It was like a week into the program that I got to know that I will be living in this place called Dalsing Sarai in Bihar. It was the first time I even heard about this place. And once she started her journey at Dalsing Sarai, the work was nothing like the outsider version, most of us would imagine.

There were people who didn't have the 10 rupees cash for transportation to go to the hospital. Yeah, no, and they're blowing mine. Yeah, so keep going. This is all crazy. Like, I knew nothing about what he just said. Those five years were my master's degree. Eventually, I did go to Oxford to do my masters. From the villages of Bihar to getting her masters in Oxford, all the way to regional offices of WHO in Africa. Here we go. beauty, welcome. Hi, Naman. It's wonderful to be here.

It feels like just about last week where we were both chilling in MP Birla. Of course, it has been way longer than a week since we were there. Can you talk me through kind of your journey to getting to UNICEF or the World Health Organization? These all muddle up in my head. I did not pay nearly enough attention as I should have in civics class in MP Birla. So talk me through kind of how you ended up where you are currently.

I know you worked in Bihar for a long time. You've just been doing the most incredible work from your LinkedIn. But for our listeners, bring us up to speed what's been going on since you graduated from MP Birla. Thank you, Naman. It honestly has been way longer than a week. I can guarantee that. So after school, we have done things which I never thought I'd end up doing. So in high school, I didn't take up science, forget biology, but I took up economics, but I ended up working in the global health field. So it all started by chance in a way.

I did a social leadership program in India, which actually helped me get into the development sector and particularly in public health. And after that, I was working, as you said, in Bihar for almost five years with a public health organization. Then I did my masters in international health and tropical medicine. I did work in a couple of other public health organizations as well. And right now I'm working with the World Health Organization regional office in Africa.

So it has been an interesting journey so far, but something which I did not plan, but it's where I'm right now. Yeah, so it sounds like the starting or the stepping stone towards this entire trajectory. Sounds like it was your first stint or first being exposed to the public health stuff that you mentioned over in India. I think it was Bihar that you said was your first stint there. So I think firstly, when you share that, like candidly, the first thing that comes to mind is just stuff is shown in movies and such, right? Usually it's associated with, you know, bad living conditions, not enough pay.

It's like a really tough life where you're just kind of, I mean, you're, you're almost supposed or expected to choose between, you know, living a comfortable life versus actually helping society. So has that been true in your experience? And maybe you could also kind of walk us through how that first exposure came to be because, like, I don't know if I know a single other person, actually, that went down this route other than you.

So that obviously makes it and, you know, like just an extremely unique thing. So how did it all start, so to speak. So, you know, it's very interesting because when I, when I joined the fellowship that I'm talking about, so it was like a social leadership program and we joined the fellowship, we had a initial training. And then we were assigned these organizations. So we had no idea coming into the fellowship that which organization we would be assigned to or which state or which, you know, city we will live in.

So it, it was like a week into the program that I got to know that I'll be living in this place called Dalsing Sarai in Bihar. It was the first time I even heard about this place. So when, you know, when I told my parents, told my family, everyone was like, what is this place? I think it was also the first time even they heard about that place. Yeah, I'm from Bihar and I haven't even heard of it. So yeah, so it was quite like a, like a new thing. But for me, honestly, I was more looking forward to it because that the, the entire feeling of, you know, going to a new place completely.

And like, you know, whether it's a new region, whether it's like a new and that was my first also stepping into the work field. So that just got me excited. So I did not really think about, you know, whether about the safety or any other thing. And obviously I did know that the, the fact that the fellowship is sending me to a place like this, the organization was well known. We already had a fellow from a previous year who was working there. So I knew that, you know, they will not be sending me to just any other place.

So I think that excitement of getting to work, get my hands dirty on the ground. I think that sort of really did not make me feel worried about about the, about the safety or any other concern. And I think one thing which really worked for me was that I did not go there with a preconceived notion. I did not look at like, you know, Bihar as a state, which is unsafe or which is known like a certain, you know, in a certain way.

So that also helped me, you know, not to be too worried and actually go there with an open mind and to explore. It was a, like a huge change because I've grown up in a city. I have never, I have not, you know, I've not had any like even family or relatives living in any say near rural area. So I had just probably visited somewhere in in West Bengal, one of our districts, probably when I was kid, but I've never been exposed or lived there for a long time.

So now getting to live in a more of a rural setting and adapting yourself because we are, then we are used to growing up a certain way. So it's not only about adapting to the area, but also adapting to these sort of social norms, the gender norms that's, you know, acceptable in that area. So that was a quite a quite a learning experience because to do my work, I also had to be accepted by the people there. And especially as a woman, it is difficult because you all looked at in many different ways, like, you know, when I went there, I was 21, but then the first question people used to ask me, like, are you married or no, when are you going to get married? So that was what, you know, what concerned people.

I worked with, like, with community health workers with women. So to connect with them, I had to, like, carry myself a certain way so that, like, these people even start trusting me and start, like, you know, opening up to me. And I spent, like, five years in that place. And I don't think so in cities, we have that sort of connection with people. People are, wow, no, we are just used to staying in our bubbles. Like, nowadays, probably we don't even know our neighbors anymore.

But they're, like, the kind of warmth with which people accept you. And they don't really always look at you with suspicion and they trust you. I think that's something which has stayed with me and which I think has impacted me, like, in my life so far. I think that's a very fresh perspective because I was almost of the opinion. And I don't know where it comes from, probably just movies and such. It's a good question. I'll have to interest back on that later. But we're almost conditioned to believe that people in rural areas are actually more distrusting, right? Like, there, there, you need to always be on your guard. Somebody might be out to get you. It's the, at least a general notion that I had. So it's really refreshing to hear you say that it's actually the opposite, like people there believe in community more.

They're just, you know, it's like nicer, so to speak, or more wholesome quote unquote. I am curious, though, because you spent five years with that fellowship in Bihar. I'm sure you were doing a bunch of like, as you said, public health related work. I am curious if you can maybe share just a day in the life, maybe in your first year and then how that contrasts with probably your fifth year over there. I'm just very curious about what you're just, you know, an average day in the life looked like in while you were still in Bihar.

Yeah. Just before I dive into that, you know, when you were talking about trust, I, there was, I think it was my first week or second week in Bihar, and I had an experience which has really stayed with me. We went for a field visit with one of my colleagues was from that area. So he was taking me to this certain village. We were meeting some patients, like tuberculosis patients. And we, I went inside someone's house like my colleague was still just parking his bike somewhere. So I went inside someone's house and I know like I called them and this lady came out.

And she very nicely she asked me to sit and she was like offering me water and chatting with me. And then my colleague actually came in whom she already knew from beforehand, but she was meeting me for the first time. And I just said, I'm with this person, and she was like, yeah, please come sit inside and she started talking. And right after some time she said that, I mean, she looked at me, she was looking at me and you know she she had some questions and then she told me that you see that there's a difference between like how people are in cities and how people are in this village, because like you came into our house and I, I completely like, you know, welcome you and you're so nice.

And I'm happy that I've met you. But that's not how people will treat me if I go to a city and I go to someone's house, even if to, you know, ask for help or ask for directions. They will not trust me. They will like treat me as like a thief or someone and like, you know, shoot me away. Like, you know, obviously, we were talking in Hindi and he was telling me that. And that was, you know, that really struck me that I was like, that's so true that probably that's also something, you know, even I have done that if somewhere has come to my house and I completely do not know them.

Not, we are not often that welcoming or even we offer that, you know, that can be, can we, you know, what are you here for? We don't even give them that space. So that has something that was something which has really stayed with me and I still remember that woman and even her name, that, you know, that she really gave me like a lesson in the development sector. No, I was still a student. So for me, it was like, okay, this is the first lesson in the development sector that I can learn from this experience.

But that's such a wholesome story. I'm so glad you shared it. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, going back to your question. So, obviously, things had changed over the five years. I mean, you know, I also grew as a person like from when I went there, as I said, I literally went there as a beginner. I had no idea about like forget tuberculosis about public health as well. I had like, I didn't have a background or I didn't have a clinical background. So, like, initially, a lot of my work in my first year was around around field work.

So I would, you know, I would do, I would go with my colleagues. I would go to the field, visit some of the patients and I visit them obviously not to provide medical care, but to see, like, for example, we were working on tuberculosis. So we had like patients who were on treatment to so to check whether they are having their medications properly, whether they have any problem or not, whether they have gone to the hospital for their follow up or not.

Then, you know, like just organizing a lot of community meetings. So that was one of my main sort of portfolio that I was working on, like designing training programs for community health workers for these women groups. So, so it was like a lot of field work. So that's really awesome that they allowed you that flexibility to, you know, not just feel stuck doing the same thing. I'm sure if you had the chance, you probably would have just continued to do field work.

If you really wanted to do that, right, but I'm sensing that maybe just due to external or like a mix of external and internal factors, maybe you kind of move more to the project management side. I guess the thing I'm really curious about, because you got to do this for five years, which is such a long time. What were some of the, like, I guess biggest shockers that you found, just because you were immersed in this new world, and I'm talking about public health in specific like in rural India, because I'm maybe you can correct me if this is wrong, but you could probably even replace

with another place and these would probably still apply, maybe I don't know, maybe you can address that. But yeah, what were some of the most shocking things that you learned during your time there that is just not evident from the outside at all, like in terms of actually affecting change. I guess what is something that your average citizens of the world or of India can do that will actually make a huge impact for folks like yourself that are dedicatedly doing this for these communities in terms of public health.

First of all, you know, I really do not like to label this work as social work, because this is not like this is, yeah, this is work, which is, I mean, it's as important as, or, you know, we are also working, we are also getting paid. I'm not doing any of this course, and I've never, it's like, yeah, so it's very different from say, say voluntary. So, working in development sector or working in say in public health or global health, like specifically, it is still a job.

So I am still designing programs and depends on, you know, what kind of work you do. So whether you're a research scientist, whether you're like working in the more of the operations side, you can work more off on the on the field side. So it's still very much people, it's a job. So I think the first kind of notion which also and it took time so even for my family, I think initial years they were still looking at it from a very, you know, that perspective that you're doing such noble work and you're going and working in you know be hard and it is probably different. It has a social context to it. So it is probably not for everyone. But at the same time, I do think that it should be given that importance because I think sometimes when we are looking at

it from that perspective, it also, you know the importance of the work codes or the technicalities of the work is not given that much of important so yeah so for me, since the beginning I looked at it as a work which was very like interesting so I had to learn about public health because I had I didn't have that background and and those five years really cemented that public health is also a field which I mean and I am an example of that that you don't need to be a clinician to be in this field.

So there it's a very dynamic field and you need people of like different backgrounds different you know educational backgrounds and like expertise to be in the field to make sure that like the entire health system is working properly to ensure programs that are designed are designed in a proper way. So that way I think that was a quite a good learning for me from the right go that even the organization that I was working with.

There were only like a few medical doctors who were associated with that like remain yeah so remaining all of us became from people who had say worked in or had like more of a development studies background or they had done like masters in public health and our field workers so these are people who are from the community themselves and they had they have been working with this organization you know since like since the beginning of the organization.

However like probably they have just graduated I mean you know they were not like experts quote unquote in any way, but at point of time I realize it's from them that I learned about tuberculosis that you know what is the disease, what medications they knew much better than even people who are medical doctors probably because who have not worked in the TV field. So these healthcare workers knew much better than them. The community health workers who are probably the minimum criteria was like eight eight or 10th pass like at some point of time so the community health workers the ASHA workers we call them in India. So they were experts. I mean they knew about you know all the all the different diseases or whether it was maternal and child health or the different diseases that they worked in.

They had all the idea about the medications about the, you know, like the different agnostic, he had all that knowledge. So for me I think first of all that was like a eye opener that it doesn't matter you know what kind of like educational background you come from but like immersed in your work and if you give that much effort and you know you're part of these sort of setups and trainings then you can you are an expert in that field.

And the organization that I worked with I think they had a very good model because they even made sure that these community health workers are these like our field stuff like that they get that exposure. So, in like so we were based in Dalsen Sarai Samastipur is the district, but we had our team had also gone to IIT Patna to give lectures on tubal classes on you know healthcare system design TB for the students there.

So can you imagine so that's the kind of knowledge these are so I think that was like firstly one thing which I really like loved about the about the place about the work and. For me like these these were my quote unquote teachers I would say in my professors in public health when I went there. I mean apart from that like as I started working as I started to get like a grasp of things or how how programs work because initially I was also trying to help in designing these programs right so when we are talking about say public health campaigns programs like the like how do we design it say say as an NGO we get grants right to follow for a certain period of time and there are certain like like objectives there are certain outcomes that we have to meet.

So for example for tuba classes we were working on it's called activities finding so we had so through these community health workers we had to basically identify people who might have TB and get them to the hospital get them tested. And if there are patients who are positive then ensure that they complete their treatment to say that is like a program that we have to run and we have got a certain amount of money for a certain number of years to deliver that project.

So one thing is okay on paper we are designing the program we are getting the grant but then how do we actually deliver it like on fee. And the execution part and that like you know learning that execution part and what can be some of the challenges was again something which was so eye opening that that has actually helped me now when I know I'm not in the field anymore per se and I'm you know working at a more macro level that I can actually in like utilize the learnings from there. So just a simple example like in India for example the TB medications they are available for free for the And yeah so it's we have a program in India like the national TV program. So TB medications are actually available for free. So you would imagine that I mean that's so simple if you know the cost the cost component goes away which means

that anyone who is like you know if anyone is diagnosed with TV that means like cost is a big thing that goes away like then treatment shouldn't be a challenge. But on the other hand when when we went to this field area as we saw that even for like a like someone who might I mean has all the symptoms of TB is really unwell. And we are asking them we are going to their household we did like a initial screening we think that it's actually depending on the you know the symptoms that they have and we have told them that you really need to go to the government hospital, which is probably two three kilometers away from your house you have to go there you have to get your your sample. So for TB for the diagnosis you have to usually if you can like if they cough and they get a sputum you have to give the sputum sample.

So we are like you have to give your sputum sample. It has to be tested and you know then you will get your medication, but people don't turn up because for people to you know these are a lot of these people are daily wage workers for them to actually spend that much to go to the hospital you know probably to take the entire day. There were people who didn't even have the 10 rupees cash as you know for transportation to go to the hospital.

So these are some of the challenges which you wouldn't imagine you would think about the medical issues but these you know like issues on the ground would not really think about it if you have not really integrated yourself in the system. Another again small example but something which you know these things are like literally blew my mind when I was there. Yeah no and they're blowing mine yeah so keep going this is all crazy like I knew nothing about what you just said so this is all welcome keep going.

So you know medications as I said like medications are available in the like the state or not even state say at the district level right so in our system so we have the state we have the different districts and then we have like the sub like the state levels right like panchaya then there's like a ward. So the medicines are available say at the district hospital but it has to now reach the sub district level from where the patients actually get the medicines.

And so as an organization we actually because we work very closely with the like the state TV program I mean all these like patients that we were in a way finding we were actually referring to the public health system. You know we were not running a parallel like a private system program. So, so in a way we also were helping the state to ensure that there you know supply chain is in place so that the at the like sub district level on time they can request for medicines for storage and all of that. So we did all of that we made sure that the request has gone to the district at the right time.

Then two weeks past three weeks past we get to know that you know the medications are not available in in the sub district level and we asked them like you know what is the problem. We get to know like the medicines are available at the district hospital but because the like the ones who are going to transport it, they do not usually get a what you call it like a per day or like you know some some. So, yeah daily wage since those people had not got that. So they were not bringing the medicines from the district.

Again, these are more things that you can plan for they do not know in your you know when you're making these your KPI's and your risk matrix. And think of adding these things that this can actually cause a delay in the medications available for patients. There was too many other like such things which I got to learn and again you know now that I think of it. I don't think of any other like thought program could have taught me about any of these like nitty gritties of you know what kind of challenges barriers are there on the ground or what works actually you know how do you make sure that these things work.

So yeah, it was honestly like a learning experience like throughout the five years like every day was like a new sort of challenge but also something that I could actually learn from and like in like utilize that like that learning later in my life. Yeah, I mean first of all that was so expensive that I just yeah loved all of those details that you just shared like I said, this is I'm sure not just true for me but for most of our listeners.

Yeah, we live in our like little bubble here that we just don't know anything about this type of work that goes on. And obviously I want to touch on your master's journey here in just a little bit but I do want to just further spotlight something you said which I really liked and which I think deserves, you know, just like a separate call out, which is that notion where what he said in the beginning right around that a lot of people consider social work almost as a stigma in some ways because it's almost implied that you're just you know killing yourself trying to just do this impossible job around disease and poverty and all of that.

I love that you said that because it really puts into perspective that it's a job right like you it's like any other job comes a challenge is there's room for growth and learning, you do get paid. This is not something that you have to drastically reduce your whatever life circumstances or lifestyle or however you want you want to put it to do which I think, first of all I didn't know that so of course you've already educated me on that.

But this is not something that many people realize. So I really like that you pushed back and you know set the record straight, so to speak around that. So thank you for doing that. But yeah so then to continue I know you went and got your master's after that. Can you briefly touch on your journey with like the applications and such because I'm sure with that type of experience you were already looking at. I was surprised with that I think you went to one of the best schools in the UK I believe it was for what you studied or what you got your master's in.

So briefly can you touch on maybe how you shortlisted stuff was there certain things that you were looking to do or was it just more of a I think it's time for the next step this feels feasible so let's go ahead and do that. How did that plan out for you. So you know like I had definitely not again not really thought about studying abroad or that was not like in my initial like you know plan of action or anything. So I came as a like after around two years while I was in my work this, this is something which came up like after talking to some of my peers, especially from the fellowship itself because I knew they were also applying for some of these different master master studies so I was like okay why not like let me also give it a try so initially again I had I didn't really know.

Many people in my same in my educational like from my college earlier who had applied or so so in that sense it was more like you need to start and there were again two or three of my friends from that fellowship who were also applying. We kind of came together we were helping each other and you know just reviewing our initial sort of set of documents as well. So it started off like that. And like since I didn't really you know know a lot of people because your college is your first sort of point of contact right like if you have probably who have applied before you know that actually helps because then you know that cookie when your professors they kind of have an idea they can help

me say the letter of a commendation so since that was not there I really had to figure out from different sources that you know what are the kind of like courses that can be relevant for me. And again since also because I studied economics but now this was completely different this was initially I was also thinking about development studies like as a whole when I was looking at my master's options and then I kind of narrowed it down to like global health and this is something that I've been working in and I also do enjoy working so I thought okay let me actually narrow it down to global health.

So, so it was more of that like the first year that I had applied I remember it was more like just trying to shortlist like a few colleges where I think the course is interesting so I really looked through the through the website and through the kind of structure that they provided to see whether yeah the curriculum to see whether you know this is something which I am interested in. Then I was I did talk to a few people who had who had done that course before to just to see that whether you know this is something that aligns to what I want to do next.

And the only thing which I did was like I was not complicating it too much I did not look at say 10 20 like schools across the globe so I was very UK came as an option because I again it was because I knew a few people who who had gone to the UK so I started with the UK like okay let me not complicate things much let me look at UK as an option so I had not really I mean later on I did apply to only one University in the US again that was because I knew someone who had applied there so it was.

But again US was not somewhere that I had looked at it was UK and then a few places in the in Europe like in Germany. Another criteria for me was that I knew that I needed a scholarship to go and study abroad so that also became a criteria to see whether universities have their even their internal scholarships or. Yeah so that also was like an important criteria for me so it did take around two years. Eventually I did go to Oxford to do my Masters but like the first year or even the first two years rather when I had to do was not my list.

So I was applying for other universities and I don't think so what you had said that like because of my work experience I was already confident I was definitely not. When I applied for the different universities when I got in I realized that okay so maybe my like my work experience and my educational experience so far at least will help me get an admission so I think that first year was gave me that confidence because again my my sort of education like my I was not like I was a very average student like I was not like a topper or I didn't have a lot of extra curriculars in my CV.

So you know what the kind of notions that you have that so I was like okay let me first see that whether am I even eligible to get in these universities. So the first kind of went in that the second year when I was for all these places where I had gotten admission in so I because I didn't end up getting like a full scholarship so I deferred for another year. So second year I was now really focusing on the scholarships I realized that okay getting an admission is not a challenge but scholarships are definitely much more competitive so I have to now focus on that.

So I was you know applying I kind of gave it a bit more effort to apply for these scholarships and prepare for them. Again it was difficult to do it with a full time job so the second year also I don't think so I think I got like a few partial scholarships by that time actually COVID came so things got pushed a bit and it was yeah in 2020 when I went like first time like the thing of okay applying to Oxford came and it was also because of a friend who had just gone there like that year in another course but he actually referred like the course I ended up going to he actually referred me about he told me about that love it but you know this is awesome which seems interesting it's like international health but it's interdisciplinary so you just give it a chance

so I was like okay bye not I'm really not thought about Oxford but and I did and again like I got that mission and again that year I also got the scholarship for Oxford. It's a scholarship for Indian students but yeah it's it's a I mean in some ways when I think of it this scholarship is also it's an anonymous donor. Oh wow. So it's a well-known scholarship it's been there for over 25 years now one was 30 years and it supports students for three universities in the UK so Oxford University of Reading and so as University of London.

But yeah it's a it's actually like we don't know who the main like donor or the trustees are so I mean that kind of really gives me like there's a lot of sense of gratitude that no one person or entity has actually funded my education. But yeah so it was like the application process was a lot of trial and edder but I think the process on as well and it. What really helped was I think having that you know group of peers like we were supporting each other so we were going through each other's like statements and like giving feedback and that that really helped and I can see like a huge difference in probably my first version that I had what I actually ultimately submitted.

And also for me I think I did not really pressurize myself I did not give myself like a deadline that okay if this year it doesn't happen then no it's the end of life or something like that. If I knew what I wanted I knew that I had to get a scholarship like there was no other chance and obviously the alternative would have been disappointing if I did not end up doing that but I think by that third year like the year that I actually if by then I told myself that if I'm not getting a scholarship by now. Now then I think about moving on to say another job or maybe applying somewhere else within India or somewhere else where it's more affordable.

So I had a native in my mind as well and I knew that although you know it might have been disappointing at some point but it wasn't something which would have probably stopped me from not doing something else. And I think that having that mindset really helped because each year whenever I was not getting that scholarship and at that point obviously really affects you. But I was still like with my work I was still looking at okay what else can I try what are the other maybe if this college is not working out you know how can I be more strategic how can I actually look at a college which probably has more chances of getting a scholarship with their own internal internal scholarships as well. So by the second year I became a bit more strategic and I was looking at that aspect as well apart from the specific course that I was interested in.

Yeah I think you said it to yourself but yeah I think your approach to this was way more patient than I think definitely mine was because in many ways my entire application process. Obviously it's not related at all in terms of fields but it does share the common theme of applying to a university that is not in India. But in my case I actually settled just like that which is as you said the exact opposite of what you did you said you knew what you wanted and you were not ready to settle which I love that just how patient you were with that because I know how hard it can be and how tempting it can just be like to it's good enough it's not like a full ride but sure it's like something so maybe we can just take the plunge but clearly you knew that you could do it and you did end up doing it.

So that's awesome like I feel like you know maybe the outcome or the takeaway from that is it helps to know your worth and it makes sense to spend time figuring out what your worth is because I can attest for myself that I was just lucky to get the one single admit that I got in my first series of applications which were literally just three colleges. I was like great this is good enough let's go which you know we obviously we will never know if that was the right or wrong decision it you know turn out fine I guess.

But from this point I guess what I'm more curious about is help us contrast the way the West looks at public health policy stuff or international health. So this is how you were used to practicing it while you were in India. I know I don't think that there is a like the concept of you know how the West looks at it comes in this because it's about policy versus practice it's not about how. Interesting yeah about what the India is doing versus what the best is doing so I don't think so it's about that like there is enough prejudice around the world and we are seeing that now in like in recent years how the like how funding in the development sector in global health has really reduced how some of the very fundamental programs like childhood vaccine that's not given importance and then we also see the repercussions of that.

So, and this is happening in the so called you know West more developed more advanced nation so these sort of sort of you know notions are very much there everywhere. So, so definitely I think in general like you know funding in the government systems that's very important so that stands across all all countries and whichever country has done that has strong public health systems. Has you know enough like research capacity we see that those places have found like evidence have really contributed to to the research space to these evidence which helps in the policy building.

So, so yeah that for me you know has been across across the state like even in India I mean there is enough like we have really good institutes as well like government institutes that there even the private institute so we do have like good work happening in India as well. But at times you know it's always that there is some bit of politics which plays that you know comes into play especially at the public health institutes or these like the government institutes.

So, so that like you know that kind of effects and that we have seen also in the say I studied in the UK so I've also seen it there as well and but whenever there is like a opportunity for cross learning like you know between countries or between these institutions. And then we have seen like great results in that. So, for example even when we talk about the COVID vaccine right like it was like one of the vaccines like the Covi shield which we a lot of people in India which we got and like we know it by that name so that was actually developed by researchers at Oxford like at the general institute and it was manufactured by the serum institute of India so there is capacity in all of these places and it's about like what kind of investment that the government makes that in India I still feel

that in public health like health as a subject it's still underfunded. We do not really you know fund help that well over the years there has been improvement but then it's not that significant compared to the kind of challenges that we have like overall and the states that have invested more definitely they do see the results so at this point when that the data we know that a lot of the southern in southern India a lot of the states whether it's Kerala whether it's Tamil Nadu they do have like very robust public health systems and they say some of the basic indicators that we look at like child mortality infant mortality those rates are low in these states like the maternal mortality rates are low

the in general the public health infrastructure is much better so I mean the evidence is out there it's also the political will it's also the you know how how the government decides to then invest in these different known these different areas also I mean over the years it's like in in my 10 years of my career now that I think of it think that changing so rapidly right like we have multiple like multiple issues at the same point like a state like Bihar for example we are still dealing with issues of say to book losses right which is a age old disease a communicable disease at the same time there is maternal and child health the mortality rates are still quite high in these states but also nowadays like the non communicable

disease right like diabetes hypertension which were initially thought of as like diseases of the rich or those are but they are also now being present in these more like the states which are not that advanced socio-economically so and again climate change like with the heat stress with you know like water like safe water not being available so now there are like competing priorities so really health care systems have to be have to not only think about just providing like the basic of building a hospital or making sure the doctor is there to really looking at integrated health they have to think about these like the change in the like the disease patterns that's happening

because of safety change or because of just our lifestyle changes so and that can only happen if we like invest in the like in research in public health infrastructure in ensuring that evidence from say you know the work which the private sector is doing that those things come up and those things actually like leads to the policy making because we cannot like just the traditional mindset that okay this you know this is a certain problem we look at it from just one perspective we have to think it more dynamic point of view because again as I said like they are competing priorities funding is never enough and like again like in recent years and what we can see in the next coming few years it's going to be even more difficult

because for all governments right now like sad reality other the focus is not on development on education health and all people are spending more on defense for not you know for not it's not planned these are all things which are happening suddenly so yeah there's a there's a lot to learn and there's a lot to do step like there's still a lot to do in the steel yeah I think it's very interesting what you said around that there is really not that much of a difference between how the West does this versus India that is honestly shocking to me and I guess why the reason I say that is maybe there are like preconceived notions baked in here but I was half expecting

that we like just differences around the approach itself right so so in my experience I'd in like the stem world or whatever so like the learning here is much more hands on you like actually have to do projects and that like that is the primary way you learn versus the more book oriented approach that at least India had when I got my masters or at least when I was there for my undergrad or whatever so I was actually half expecting you to say something along the lines of they have a more like systematic approach or I don't know like I guess the approach is where I was expecting maybe that there might be a difference but it's almost reassuring actually to hear the reality which is that here's a problem it's really hard to solve

no one has quite actually completely figured it out completely so we're all trying to get it which I kind of like that more versus you know what I actually expected you to say so yeah thank you for as usual you know just continuing to just keep blowing my mind here with stuff that you're saying but moving forward with your experience so I we know that you're at the WHO now can you kind of talk us through how you ended up there I'm sure you probably had maybe a chance to choose in what to do once you graduated so first of all was that true and if and like yeah just curious about how you ended up currently doing what you do which you hinted at earlier you're operating more at the macro level just affecting change from much higher up

so what I guess how did you end up where you are currently it was I mean after my master's I think it was a very humbling experience when you get to know that like no things just do not come to you just because you have just completed your master's or from say you know good university yeah it's Oxford like good universities and understatement can we agree on that first of all but the reality is it's not like that it's it that was like the first few months that was the most humbling experience because you know it's not that I ever felt like I'm not in general I don't think I'm like a very confident person so it's not that I felt that you were confident because of people around you like your parents like very very sweet of them for them to be like okay now things are easy things are just going to come to you

that was definitely not the case so it did take like a lot of just you know applying to different like different places I think for me also something that like earlier because I was used to doing one kind of work and you know I thought that okay this is the kind of work that I like and I like doing and also because I was introduced to that work so you know that area or that's something which I kind of knew about and even during my five years of like working before I did my master's I was more even if I was like trying to read more or get my you know get used to the public I feel I was looking at those specific areas so after the master's one thing which happened was that I was now also now interested in more things

like I what interested in systems for example which I did not look at it from that lens before so now that my interest area had also broadened which meant that I was looking for say opportunities which were say kind of in different fields as well from what I had done before so so so so you know that was one thing then again like earlier the opportunity was that okay I I have worked in India and then again if you have not you don't have a master's and you have only worked in one country again it's not that easy to then apply for jobs abroad it's definitely not like that but now again since I applied up I mean I've studied abroad I had that sort of network now so like even knowingly unknowingly your ambitions also kind of you know you have these different opportunities

which you know that you are sort of eligible for right now so you want to try those so I think it started with that so I was definitely looking at these new areas like health systems was something that I got really interested in so I was like okay that's something that I want to explore and let me see if I can get a some work around that for organizations like I was I mean like I think I was quite like okay with coming back to India so that was never a thing that I want to stay abroad I want to stay back in the UK so that was not I mean I was quite flexible about that that if things are not if I'm not able to get a job here then I'm okay to move back to India so so again those were some of the considerations that I had initially

initially and so again applying for these different kind of jobs the UN jobs market was quite daunting because I did not really know anyone who was working here so even the application process or the different you know interview process like and at times it really feels like a black box that you keep on applying and you don't really your back so there's not even a rejection so you're just waiting for something to happen and so you don't know like what happens so even before the current job that I have so from I would say around 2023 early 2023 is when I was applying for these just if I focus on the UN jobs so I did learn a lot from it as well like over the years then I understood that you know what kind of works and what doesn't so the general notion was from whoever I'd heard was that you need to you know I kind of have like a referral

or you need to know some of those again these are like like thousands of people are applying for a single job and there are internals and now that I'm in in the system I know how the hiring process works I'm like yeah it's it's difficult to you you might miss up on a really good candidate because it's difficult like just how the structure is and how the shortlisting works so so and that did happen there were many jobs that I applied for but then I didn't even hear back the ones which I started hearing back like as for example I got shortlisted for the first round like some written round or for the interview is what I realized that I had a similar experience so whether so which means that in my

CV something came up that okay I've worked in that same area or done like a even a master's thesis or a project in that area so those were the things so for example if so in public health for example if I have say I've worked in maternal child health I've worked in two book losses and I'm applying for a role which is in say mental health maybe there's a very little chance that I would get shortlisted for that even if you know I think that okay I want to now move into the mental health field but because it's not showing in your CCV so it did not really it will not get flagged up so that was one thing in general I felt that also all these most of these UN jobs so even for WHO or others as well you got mentioned UNICEF they have a very detailed

like the first like the you need to create a profile so those that is very detailed you know you need to provide more like education your experience your other skill sets language this and that so it's like a profile that you create that you can keep updating it and yeah and then you apply through it so making sure that that profile creation you do it like with a lot of patience it might seem a very like tedious task yeah but that because that's what helps like the first round of shortlisting which usually the HR does so filling that initial step you know properly and making sure you do not miss out on anything even if it's like a experience which you think is not

might not be relevant but just putting all that information in there is is important so I think those were again those were things which probably after the third or the fourth round of like you know trying out and applying is when I realize when the first I got shortlisted my first then the second then I realized okay these are the things which are actually working on that the ones which I'm getting shortlisted for is because I have some sort of experience in that area the second thing was again like the interview process itself so it depends it's not like same across in some places depending on the role depending on the like the position level also some have you know like written round some directly have an interview round but the team of competency based interviews I had not really done that

before again I had not really applied for any job before that yeah yeah fellowship directly and then I did my master's so this was my first time actually applying for jobs and then the competency based sort of yeah competency based interviews so my first interview that I had with WH I think I was no was definitely but I felt I was prepared but like at the interview I knew that okay I think I did not really answer that confidently because although like the theoretical bit I had read about you know how competency best interviews are but practically when I had to actually do the interviews I realized that okay maybe I did not really answer them in that certain way and that helped the next time when I had an opportunity for an interview I kind of knew again I'm not saying it gets completely

easier and it's like yeah yeah but it's all about getting the reps in right to get your practice yeah and it makes you better whether you like it or not yeah exactly I mean you you understand okay what kind of questions might come and you know what are the how do you structure your answer so that like that process really helped me like getting sort of a job at WH because again like now but again now that I am working here I realize that a lot of these organizations institutions they are just inflated outside like you feel that it's impossible to get here and all of that I mean you can things happen you know I and at the same point I know many people who are probably

ten times more like intelligent or more hard working or has all the right that but I know that they have said that you know they have kept on applying and they have not got a job so it also like there have been different factors right like which kind of impact these things but like as someone who has probably never applied or who doesn't know anyone in their circle was gotten gotten I would say that do not let that stop you from applying or you know do not or even if it's been say a few months or year and you have not heard back doesn't mean that it's the end of the road just just keep trying and just nowadays it's so much also you

know you can reach out to people right like through LinkedIn like that because again I did not know anyone like when I came to like WH in my initial interviews I did not really know like anyone who had gotten or in my in my peers I mean then I do know a few of my alumni is like at Oxford who who were working so you know I reached out to them I sort of got some understanding about the process from them so yeah I mean it's easy to nowadays to reach out to people and there are many people like I have received that sort of help from others and and now I make sure that whoever kind of reaches out to me I do whatever kind of information I have I'm against sharing my statement of purpose

that I don't do ever but apart from that I respect that yeah yeah I actually respect that a lot because first of all it almost is a little bit weird to ask for that if I'm being really honest because I don't know No I know yeah exactly exactly thankfully those requests have subsided for me gladly I don't have to face that as much anymore but yeah I actually really respect that you don't and I also want to share that it's that's the beautiful thing about trailblazers right like it takes one person to kind of show like a community or whatever you have in this case it's like your Oxford peer group

or the juniors are just now apparently people all over the internet to see that okay this one person made it so there's hope and that is just such a powerful thing that I really think is not talked about enough and that specific thing is actually a big motivation for literally the reason why this show exists so I really like that you just you know inadvertently tied that into the like the theme of this entire show to begin with but also because you've been in Africa for a while now can you speak to and I realize some of this might you might not be able to speak through like just fit complete transparency but can you at least provide an overview of the type of work that you've been doing like kind of the projects that the World Health Organization engages with

and maybe even like a day in the life type of situation just because I'm so curious what that looks like to be in the WHO So okay, WHO does a lot of work so I cannot really it'll take part to just talk about kind of work it's overall it's like a lot of again as I said you know macro level work so working closely with the ministry to ensure that the I mean we are not directly directly implementing but it's more about the technical support that WHO provides to the ministry and like having all these guidelines in place so you know even before like joining in my initial years I would read that okay this is now WHO approved or you know a WHO guideline which has come and that's true so and by WHO it's not only like people who are working there but then they are working with like institutions with like new researchers and coming up with these

organizations to to then so that then that is recommended to the countries that you can now we can take this forward so I mean broadly that's the work that WHO does on a day to day basis and again as I said the beauty of say any organization is that within that so many different work that needs to be done to make sure that organization is running so I work with the neglected tropical diseases team and my my job is like my yeah sort of job description is more of a project manager.

So the project that I work with it's actually a public private partnership and we are hosted by the WHO but the regional office for Africa. So by public private partnership I mean that we have like WHO is obviously definitely a part of it but we also have private institutions like donors like say get foundation they are implementing partners who work on the on the field with countries. There are no research institutes so everyone is coming together and then we are working on ending neglected tropical diseases in the region. So that's the work so my day to day work is a lot of making sure that the the current projects that we have, which is in a way like funding from donors to to support countries we we support different say countries to run some of their help programs in again in the entities space.

So we support for the help programs say if they have like workshops or any sort of technical like training students we are supporting them are technical offices. Yeah so they they provide that level of you know technical support but also we are supporting countries with say the the funding which is needed at times to run programs. So that kind of projects that we have so I ensure that those are running smoothly there's a lot of ensuring that the reportings are happening on time ensuring that you know the reports go to the government on time, making sure that a lot of these evidence which is out there that's documented properly, we are sharing it with our colleagues, WHO plays a huge role as a convening power because WHO is actually made up of the member states right like so all countries are basically

is a member state so is which US is not at this point. Oh, interesting. Oh yeah, that's right. I remember that. Pulled out of the US is not a member state of the world as organization anymore, but yeah but because WHO has that sort of convening power so hosting a lot of these regional forums regional like meetings where different partners where the government the ministries they come together, whether it's you know like whether it's workshops whether it's trainings.

So making sure all of these things happen like on time, you know within budget and we have our results in place. So my my role is like to make sure that that. Yeah, keeps going smoothly. So that's interesting. What I do. Yeah, that's crazy. Like I can't even imagine just amount of moving parts here but so yeah like anyway a lot of that. I just have accepted that you need like a different or special type of skill set brain ability motivation to be doing that type of work so that's awesome.

I have a question here before I let you go. What is looming on the horizon for you in terms of a career point of view is the plan to then level up to continents eventually the world or like I guess what are we thinking about. At some point you did say that. And I didn't I didn't really cut you at that point because it sounded really good that I, I have things set and I have you know thought it through that has never been the case.

No, no, I mean the truth is the ultimate thing that this is all about so yeah no perfect yeah it's anything you say is still valid yeah so keep going. Yeah, I've always really in a way you know gone with the flow, the kind of opportunities that have come through, but I kind of know the kind of area that I want to work in so like as I said you know even public health it's a huge domain. There are so many different like aspects to it so I have my interest areas and whenever even if I'm looking for a new job or you know new opportunity I kind of make sure that I'm applying in those areas so I think that's something which I'm set set on but

on the other hand, it was a very flexible when it comes to you know trying new organizations or new region so at least until now you know again these things change as different personal priorities come but at least so far I've been like you know flexible and that that has helped because I don't think I would have ever imagined that I would end up living in Brazil in Congo again like shouldn't say this point but again a country I don't think so I had actively had a lot of knowledge about people like or even the continent I visited like another country before but I think I had very little idea about the continent. A lot of it I knew when I did my masters because many of my like classmates they were from different parts of Africa

but after I've come here it has surely been an eye-opener so again not only from a professional point but also from like just generally what we know about life point of view of life so that has been like that so I overall I just hope that more interesting work keeps coming my way you know it's all not always about what we think about but also how the situation is and in the past one or two years I have realized that you need to be a bit flexible as well like the like again if people who know about the development sector about say global health they know that it has been very difficult in the past two years because of funding cuts across the globe and like you know people have like lost jobs important work on the ground have stopped like literally life saving work has stopped

so at times I feel even having a choice is a privilege like you know if I get to say that okay I'm using that I want to do this versus that like it's a huge privilege many people don't have that so again yeah I just want to go with the flow and hopefully get good work which not only keeps me going but also like is interesting and I feel motivated to do that so yeah that's the hope I love it yeah do you think thanks so much for taking the time today I feel like this has honestly been for at least for me personally and I'm pretty sure for a lot of my audience just one of the more information is to time spent bends episodes that I've recorded just because and like even if you remove the fact that this is like just like a universe that

I know very little about just you know by my circumstances it's still that the thing that is surprised me is that a lot of things I thought I knew were just completely wrong and I just love it when that happens right because that's just how you learn and that's just how you it's almost like a door opening to a new universe that you didn't even know existed I personally think whatever you do is so cool just like in this entire you know sphere of work that you're involved with personally I think there's very few areas of work that are that are as meaningful as what you do but that's just me I'm sure you will be like oh no it's not that big of a deal just knowing how you are which is just so modest but no truly thank you so so much for taking the time

this has been so awesome and yeah you know truly wishing you all the very best for all of your future endeavors and I hope you continue to change just you know change so many lives positively in Africa and around the world. Thank you so much Raman it has been honestly wonderful and it's also just good to be in such a podcast I've you know listened to some others and as you said it's you have brought in really people from different walks of life and people doing very like you know interesting things and there's a lot to learn from all of these like conversations which yeah which are which seem quite personal as well when we when we think of it so thank you for what you're doing