How To Break Into Technical Program Management at Amazon (& Big Tech) - w/ Madhur

There is a lot of information available online around how to become a technical program manager at Amazon or other MAN companies. But quite honestly, almost all of it is just wrong. This is why I sat down with Madhur Ma, a TPM at Amazon and a UT Dallas Masters in Business Analytics alumni to break down exactly what skill sets are needed for TPM roles. How to start building your profile starting in the first semester itself. Ré tailoring and finally a super detailed walkthrough of the entire interview process. If you see a role posted on LinkedIn by someone, it's pretty easy to find their official email ID and to send a cold email. You're applying for a business analyst and then ended up as PPM. Do you mind walking us

ended up as PPM. Do you mind walking us through what that was like? Once you clear that round, then you have a 5hour long loop round. Wow, that is intense. I'm Naman Pande. This is the Ready Set to Podcast. And by the end of this episode, you will know exactly how to build your profiles for DPM positions at big tech and also exactly what to expect in the interview rounds for the same. They will ask you how you have come to 15%, tell me the numerator, denominator, why did not you consider this, why you consider that from your bar razor loop, was it really hard? How did you cope with that? If it doesn't challenge you, it won't change you. If you are coming to United States, you have to get out of your comfort zone. In line with our theme of learning from high agency individuals

learning from high agency individuals who are just a few steps ahead of us, my goal with this episode is to help anyone looking to break into TPM positions and equip them with the accurate knowledge and tools to do the same. Subscribe on YouTube and any of your favorite podcast apps for weekly episodes featuring high agency individuals and daily clips from those episodes on YouTube and Instagram.

those episodes on YouTube and Instagram. I have a bunch of how to break into various roles episodes at this point and I'll be linking all of them in the description below. So, please do check them out. And now without any further ado, here's Madur. Welcome to the only podcast in the world featuring stories of high agency individuals who are just a few steps ahead of us. Madur, welcome. Thank you, Nan, for inviting boys. Yeah, I I know we've been planning to do this for a while. So, yeah, really happy to be finally doing this. And yeah just to kick off and you know jump into the deep end of things here can you walk us through a day in the life of a

us through a day in the life of a technical program manager at Amazon? Sure am I would love to. So currently it's been 5 months since I joined Amazon. I am working as a program manager at Amazon based out of Seattle Washington. Washington. Uh specifically I'm working with the forecasting planning and research team. It's it it uh comes under the customer trust organization. Okay. uh so it's a very highly cross functional role I would say uh it sits at the intersection of data strategy and execution and now with you know AI coming up there are lot of uh you know new tools or uh new uh you know loads that we are you know going to take specifically in this sector. sector. Got it. So as a program manager, my main

Got it. So as a program manager, my main focus is on driving programs that you know improve how we forecast number of investigators. investigators. Investigators. Okay. And what are you investigating? So whenever you place an order on Amazon uh and uh you fill out your delivery address, your name, your uh you know card details, 99.5% of the orders it goes through a machine learn like 100% of the you know orders it goes through machine learning model but 99.5% it passes through the model to verify if it is a genuine order or some bad actor is trying to take some advantage of the system. system. Interesting. And that's keeping in mind keep that mostly in the US you like pay for your orders. So somebody even this

for your orders. So somebody even this bad actor would probably be losing a lot of money by doing this but still you have systems in place to make sure that there's no like repeat orders and such. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. So obviously uh there are lot of uh drivers I would say where know different teams they are tracking that through your IP address through your name whose card you are using what was the delivery pin code what was the order pin code and lot of other drivers now since for the 0.5% of the order which you know the system detects that it might be you know someone uh a bad actor trying to place an order for that you need manual intervention. Okay. Okay. And employees who do the manual intervention, they are called investigator. investigator. I see. Got it. Makes sense.

I see. Got it. Makes sense. So my team forecast that how many number of investigators you will be needing. So again uh brackets into long-term and short-term forecasting and I guess up to this point I can share and then it's all uh you know within the team proply. Yeah. No, absolutely. That makes total sense and yeah, appreciate you sharing that cuz yeah, this is very fascinating and I I mean I don't know if this is common knowledge outside just in the world but I for one did not know that and just for those of our listeners who are you know wondering about TPM type of roles in general. So I know my understanding is that even though there are TPM roles in most tech organizations

are TPM roles in most tech organizations the actual activities or job description actually differs a lot right between pay Amazon or even like a meta Google you name it right so I'm curious for Amazon specifically what are some of the most important skill sets that one needs these can be tools right these can be you know technical skills as well as soft skills but yeah what would be according to you maybe we can list a top three of each that anybody looking for TPM roles at Amazon are you know must have these skills. Yeah. So we can divide it into two parts I would say. First is the technical uh and other is the business skill. Uh I guess with the technical skill it's obviously SQL. Okay. Okay. And uh it depends on the team also. A

And uh it depends on the team also. A lot of teams they prefer Python also. So it depends on the team. But yeah if you are well equipped with SQL and Python you are good to go. Second would be the data visualization part. Although Amazon uses uh their internal tool but yeah if you are good with either PowerBI or Tableau you are good to go and then obviously Excel uh Excel I believe is an underrated to yeah a lot of uh simple analysis simple uh you know variance calculation or simple uh data deep type it's it goes through excel only so yeah these are the top three skills I would rate from the technical side and uh from the non-tech obviously stakeholder management is the number one

stakeholder management is the number one skill uh which you must have. Uh second I would say business uh requirement gathering part uh it is very very important in Amazon. I and I believe both these skills uh uh a lot of projects a lot of uh you know uh programs that you do where uh it completely depends how well you can understand these two things and how you can manage these two things. Absolutely. So you know anyone who is trying to you know prepare for any interview or trying to get a job at Amazon they should or they can focus on these five things. That's super helpful. Yeah really appreciate that and I love how you know simply actionable that is right like go start learning those things. Um so and then obviously from there um I know you got your masters in business analytics I believe from UTD right? So um yeah just

believe from UTD right? So um yeah just to think back in terms of my experience with you know my masters a lot of my really close friends at Purdue were from the business analytics program actually and I think something that just you know is really curious to me is just the wide variety of roles that you apparently are eligible for with a degree like MSBA. So yeah, I'm curious to explore your um experience while at UTD when you were getting your degree. Um any courses maybe any skill sets or any tools that you picked up during your time there that you think actively contributed to you know you cracking the TPM role at Amazon and you know that has really helped you in your career. So you can think of this from the perspective of

think of this from the perspective of maybe a first semester student, right? At really any American MSBA program or it can be MIS, MEMM, they're kind of all the same if you really think about it. But yeah, what are these what are some things that these students can start doing right from the first semester that would set them up for success? Um, you know, similar to the path that you have found. It's a great question naman and uh a lot of students they do reach out to me you know before uh you know accepting any you know admit in US and uh so uh UTD was a game changer for me uh I guess uh but yeah I had one thing that I had like four five years of work

that I had like four five years of work experience when I was coming here and and what was that in what can you walk us through your past experience just be roughly roughly yeah so I was working with data a generally insurance back in India as a business scientist and I worked there for three and a half years. Uh prior to that I worked as a chemical engineer. So that's that's so I yeah I did my undergrad in chemical engineering and I uh uh I worked as a chemical engineer for couple of years then I decided to go for MBA then I got campus placement uh at Tata AG and then after three and a half years working as a business analyst there I moved to

a business analyst there I moved to states nice and uh but yeah I guess uh couple of things for me uh first was the meritbased scholarship ship that I received. Uh it's better to you know apply as early as possible if you are thinking of applying to UTD. Uh if you have a decent GRE score and decent profile you have a good chance to you know get the scholarship which basically makes your tuition fees instate and do you have to write an essay for that? Sorry to interrupt. Yes. As any notes for yeah what to write in that essay or what to mention?

essay or what to mention? So you can break it down into three parts I would say. First is why you are choosing you utility what you have done like your profile and everything and how this scholarship will help you to uh be a part of UT and maybe at the last you can mention that what uh as an alum you can do nice I love that yeah that makes sense.

nice I love that yeah that makes sense. Yep. So first step is apply for a scholarship and then you were saying yes. So uh for me the biggest uh you know factor to go for you UTD was the flexibility in choosing electives. So they give you a lot of flexibility. You have subjects you know ranging from core analytics, healthcare, operations, marketing. So no matter from what background you are coming you will find subjects there and you can decide in what field you want to pursue your career here in states and accordingly you can go ahead and choose your electives. There are six uh uh subject six electives and uh six core subjects that you have to take. So with the six electives it's completely up to the

electives it's completely up to the student what do they want to study. uh for me it uh it it was more of you know uh trying to get out of my comfort zone and uh build my networking and soft skills. So you will find a lot of career fairs, a lot of conference, a lot of networking events you know happening at the campus irrespective if you're from a business school or from a computer science school. There are lot of common you know uh you know events that happen and if you want to actually network you can start as early as possible.

can start as early as possible. True. True. Uh and yeah there are a lot of you know international confessions where you know a lot of PhD holders a lot of professors from different universities they come and uh you can be a part of it through volunteering opportunities. opportunities. Yeah Yeah I tried that and I made some good connections over there.

connections over there. Nice. And uh yeah I would say try to be as active as you can. Uh and I guess during my initial weeks only I had interaction with my program director and he said one line which you know stuck with me. He said that if it doesn't challenge you it won't change you. So if you are coming to United States spending a lot of money you have to get out of your comfort zone. You have to do things that makes you feel uncomfortable. Yeah.

uncomfortable. Yeah. So I love that that was a mantra for me and and no that's so good. Yeah. And even thinking back to my own experience I feel like all of the few good things that I have been able to achieve have somehow always been connected to you know me putting myself in situations that I could have avoided right like it was the hard thing to do. It was the uncomfortable thing to do but you know I like put myself there and yeah things have a way of working out right. Um and then speaking of uh things working out, I am curious and this is something that I get asked a lot and I'm sure you also get asked a lot that when you were you

get asked a lot that when you were you know figuring out as you were saying about the electives, did you already know that you definitely only wanted to go towards program manager umbrella of roles or were you more open when when it came to deciding the electives? Because I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at which is that it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem, right? Like if you don't know what you want then what electives do you take and if you want what electives do you take then you're kind of cornering yourself into a certain type of umbrella of rules only.

certain type of umbrella of rules only. So how did you navigate that piece? So I actually wanted to go to the technical side. Uh I had some marketing electives and operational electives uh because uh that's what my background was and yeah it's it's very important. uh out of six electives I would say you should have clarity for at least two to three up front when you are applying for the program or when you are trying to join the program. Uh the best thing that I did you know uh a new uh student can do I only took the core subjects in first first semester just to understand about the program and about you know how US education system work or say how the market is doing. So for first 3 4 months I was only studying them when uh men

I was only studying them when uh men mandatory subjects not the elective. I actually really like your call out around not going crazy with picking random electives in your first semester because that's actually exactly the mistake that I made uh in my first semester at produc. So um similar to you right I was like great yeah let's study machine learning because there was an elective for that. So I picked it and it turns out in the entire first week of classes that I attended it was like actually actually machine learning like it was just pure math you know just matrices and yeah it's just and I was like wow and like first of all I was like okay this is kind of cool but this is not what I was expecting and I also

is not what I was expecting and I also definitely did not sign up for this and contrary to you I was actually at least at the time in my head trying to go away from tech so I was like this is a big you know waste I will probably fail this last if I continue. So thankfully I was able to drop it and I was able to find something else. But yeah, I could have avoided that entire episode if I had just, you know, stick to the norm, right? As you said, figure stuff out.

right? As you said, figure stuff out. Look before you leap. Figure out how stuff works. So yeah, I think that's really really good advice for I would say most people like again you can't can't have there's no such thing as 100% advice, but at least as a blueprint, I do think that uh that stands out pretty well. And then um can you walk us through your time with I guess your entire job application process uh and we'll get to the Amazon piece specifically in just a second, but I'm curious and in like again I'm sure you have dozens of these discussions every week with people that reach out to you.

week with people that reach out to you. Um are you more of a proponent of this spray and prey approach where you just kind of blind applying to a lot of jobs or do you believe in the more you know selective intentional networking type of applications or somewhere in between what's your take on the at least as of 2025 how should students be applying according to you taking from the current time I would say a mix of both uh that's what you know I suggest a lot of you know job seekers who are trying to find either internship or full-time uh times have changed in past four years you know from the time when you know I was looking for you know

when you know I was looking for you know internship I used to get at least you know couple of calls every week but now things have changed so I would say a mix of both pray and pray and a focused approach uh more inclined towards focused approach and uh what worked for me and what you know I suggest a lot of job seekers is to take the advantage of cold email interested Yeah, it's it's pretty easy to find like if you see a role posted on LinkedIn by someone, it's pretty easy to find their you know official email ID. You have a lot of uh you know tools where you can find their email ID and try to you know send a cold email and with the cold email also I would say keep it short. Uh

email also I would say keep it short. Uh okay I have seen a lot of uh emails where you know job seekers they are posting two to three paragraphs. No one sadly no one has that time to read to go through all in the middle of a work day right no no chance yeah hiring managers I was speaking to one hiring manager she was telling me that they get thousand rums every week wait from cold DMs or cold emails no from like the internal yeah from the portal internal you know people reaching out so you know approximately thousand every week and obviously they don't have the time to go through each and everything so I would say keep it very short keep it precise. Uh depending on the role you are targeting, break it

the role you are targeting, break it down into three four major points where you want to focus on your technical skills or business skills or program management skills. Uh I would say people uh this is what you know my observation has been uh where a lot of job seekers they rely too much on the referral stuff. Uh yeah, referral is good obviously I got my first uh call in Amazon through referral only but was this role for your TPM role that you're at currently? No that's a different journey. I actually started with a business analyst role. role. Okay interesting. Wow. What that's a big step up. Yeah would love to explore that but yeah please continue.

but yeah please continue. Yes. So yeah, I would say uh for the referral if you know someone who can refer you in maybe in you know couple of hours once the role you know opens up and you are in the first 50 to 100 applicants of that particular role you have a higher chance of getting picked like your resume has a higher chance but yeah if the person who is refing you is taking three four days I don't think so that's a good approach right because you're then just getting buried by the there's thousands of resumes on top of you and yeah you just lost that makes sense. Yeah.

lost that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say just uh if you know these are my 10 to 15 uh you know target companies just uh have someone uh from those companies where they can refue maybe in couple of hours. Try to apply to roles as early as possible. And uh you should like this has been a change in past couple of years where you know people just used to project their uh you know experience points and the some of the college projects but now companies are mostly focusing on how you can actually solve a business problem and they are more interested in what you have done and how it impacted your you know previous organiz organization. organization. Yes. So this is what you know a change

Yes. So this is what you know a change that I noticed and if you can showcase that on your resume following again the style method that we have and mentioning or highlighting some of the projects that you have done in in a similar way it gives a higher probability of getting your resume select absolutely yeah so just you know show don't tell like that what you've done just be make it super obvious um for for that way. Yeah, that makes sense. That's I think that tracks with me. And you know, past guests on the show have also kind of shared similar things, right?

kind of shared similar things, right? They they've said that referrals are slightly overrated or can be overrated, right? And sometimes it just makes sense to go ahead and apply instead of waiting around for one because they really don't add that much as much as people might think. But yeah, so from there, could you talk us through your, you know, I'm very curious to explore your journey at Amazon. I know you just said that you were applying for a business analyst and then clearly you somehow ended up as TPM which that's awesome really happy for you but I'm sensing there's a bit of a story there so do you mind walking us through what that was like?

through what that was like? Sure. Uh so my friend he started working for Amazon in October 23 and I know him from my MBA days. So almost 9 years of friendship and uh when he started he uh you know we were speaking one day and he told me that you should start applying for Amazon. Now previously I was only looking for the internship position at Amazon but I didn't get any call. Uh so he started referring me we we worked on the resume since uh my background was in business analyst and I was working as a business analyst with my previous you know company. Yeah. So I thought it's a best bet that I should go for a similar go. True makes sense.

True makes sense. And he started referring me in September last year which was 2024 and uh I got one assessment in just couple of days for a BA L5 position. So uh for the first step you have a hacker rank uh you know uh test that you have to clear. You have certain set of questions under a certain set of time you have to clear that. I clear that then you have a round with with and is that live? Is the hacker rank round live or do you get you can take it in your own time? No, it's not live. Uh you get 120 minutes to finish 23 questions if I'm not wrong. But yeah, they give you 7 days. You can take it uh

they give you 7 days. You can take it uh from your home. You can take it in your setting. Okay. You just have to finish it in a Yeah, in seven days. Okay, cool. So that's step one. Then you have a call with HR uh where they ask you certain set of you know questions ranging from the salary expectations. Do you need any immigration support? You have to come to 5 days to office at so and so location and couple of other questions also uh or basic screening stuff pretty much like nothing too crazy. Yeah.

nothing too crazy. Yeah. No. So it's not a they do not filter out candidates mostly unless until there's some exceptional case. So if somebody says that I'm not going to come in person obviously that that won't work. Yeah. So next is your phone screening round. Phone screening is basically a round either with a hiring manager or someone within your team. uh so depending on the role it's like for a BA or for SD role it's technical where it's a live coding round where the person who is taking your interview they will share a link of a platform and they will ask you to write the code for the problems that they share.

problems that they share. Got it. So it's a 1 hour round and at the end they might ask you questions on your resume and Amazon's leadership itself. itself. So is this on lead code or what platform do they use it? Live code. Oh live code. And what's like the level of difficulty for these? So it depends on the role level. So if it's a L5 role you can expect medium to hard questions. If it's an L4 role uh you can expect easy to medium questions.

you can expect easy to medium questions. And as you if it's a L6 role obviously you expect uh hard. Yeah makes sense. And then how did you go about preparing for these? Any tips or any pointers on how one can upskill or crack these uh or just where like where to practice how to practice any resources there? So I practiced a lot. So my first board to platform is obviously lead code where you do uh 50 top 50 SQL interview questions. Makes sense. That's playlist right? I think it's pretty popular.

right? I think it's pretty popular. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, uh they are trying to match the level of companies like Microsoft, Amazon and other companies where you can find similar questions there. there. So I was kind of uh you know uh preparing that and my work also involves SQL. So I was continuously you know working on SQL also. Nice. Uh so yeah uh it was like uh if someone who doesn't have a you know background uh I would say try with hacker rank and then graduate to lead code. If you are able to clear or solve lead code problems by yourself you are good too. Awesome. Love it. Great. So that was round three right? Yeah. Yeah. Yes sir. That was round three and uh expect couple of leadership principle

expect couple of leadership principle questions also. So it's best you prepare for that also. And these are behavioral mostly right behavior like how did you manage the conflict within your team or tell me a time when you missed the deadline and yeah and you have to stick to I think it's 16 Amazon principles is that right or how many hours 16 yeah I remember from my days of applying so and yeah you kind of have to the you have to use one or more of those in each of your responses right like you were leveraging those since pretty much okay correct correct yeah you can use couple of uh you know leadership principles in the same answers and uh try to be as organic as

answers and uh try to be as organic as you can. So a lot of us uh you know you can start preparing and you see that it's not adding up as an organic answer. So you try to be you know as organic as you you Makes sense. Okay. So yeah you did your coding round you did your a few if they ask you leadership type questions and then is there around four?

questions and then is there around four? Yes. So yeah some you can also expect some questions on your resume. Okay. In that same third round at the end of that code exam. Okay. Yes. So if your resume has certain you know experience or project that they think is directly aligned with the role you are applying for you can expect uh you know questions around that. Did yours have that? Did yours okay so got it. And how how rigorous I guess are these questions? Uh so initially I don't think so it's that you know rigorous. They expect you to answer in start format. So if you are you know as long as you are following the formula but you have to be thorough with your answers. You just cannot

with your answers. You just cannot you know yeah touch the surface and you have to maybe sometimes deep dive in your answers to explain what really happened and how it's now you know impacting the company. Yep. Makes sense. Uh then once you clear that round then you have a 5hour long loop round uh where you know five if Yeah. It sounds too too that is intense like it's just continuous is is that right? Uh so it depends on you. You can either take it in one day or you can split it in two days. Uh they ask you for the slots. You can it's completely up to you if you want to take a break of half an hour 1 hour between the interviews and uh you share your preferences of the

uh you share your preferences of the slot and accordingly they schedule. Did you do yours all in one day then? So the tricky part is that the position for which I got the loop I submitted my uh you know preferences for it and couple of days before the loop they told me the role has been filled. Oh no like internally did they say oh wow yeah it's always an internal backfill always. Yeah unfortunately I didn't get the chance to uh take the loop interview that was in November last year 2024.

that was in November last year 2024. Wow. I requested HR to find another similar position maybe within the same team or with a different team that she's handling. Uh and uh she was kind enough to find I guess one more position after 20 25 days. Uh but for that I had to give the phone screening you know again the live coding question leadership principle. principle. Wow that's just manh that's tough. Yeah that yeah that was tough. It was I guess at the end of December. Okay. Okay. Uh I gave it again. I cleared that again. Then I again submitted the slots for the loop. Uh I took it uh in two days. So two interviews in one day and next day you have three interviews.

next day you have three interviews. I see half an hour break in between. I see. Uh but yeah, it was intense. You can expect one bar raiser out of but you do not know who the bar raiser is. So what's the bar razor? I'm not familiar. Bar razor is someone who will ask more questions or you can expect tougher questions I would say uh or more follow-up questions. Uh so bar razer is someone who is at least two levels above the position you are interviewing for.

the position you are interviewing for. I see. So basically somebody that just grills you really hard bit my tight. Okay. Got it. And they don't say who it is. You do not know who that you will tell you who the hiring manager is out of those five you know interviewers but yeah you do not know who the bar is but yeah all five interviewing you at the same time or is it one round after another one person like one that's why it's the loop I see makes sense sense that's why yeah it's the loop so you finish one round with one person then you move to the second round with second person person and what do they ask in these are these similar across various members of the loop or is it kind the same stuff but regurgitated.

regurgitated. So you have to focus completely on the leadership principle. You have to have your stories mostly behavioral then behavior but yeah you can expect some questions from the hiring manager. If you are interviewing for a technical you can expect some questions uh you know from the hiring manager they can ask you questions like for this role you know I was asked SQL questions or PowerBI questions with leadership principle questions too. interesting.

questions too. interesting. Wow. Yeah, it was intense. It was good. I I enjoyed it. Uh I was stressed out, but yeah, I started preparing uh like in September, October. So, it g me good amount of time to actually prepare for it. it. Um and then from your bar raiser loop specifically, anything you can share about that? Like was it, you know, really hard? How did you cope with that?

really hard? How did you cope with that? Did you know this one was the bar raiser? Like can you share anything about that? Yeah. So my uh first for my loop uh third interviewer was my bar razer which was my first interview on the second day. Got it. And uh I figured it out based on the questions he was you know asking. Do you have a sample just I'm so curious. curious. Uh so it depends on your story. So it completely depends on your story. uh if let's say you said that okay I did this automation part where I was able to say 15% 15% uh manard for my team just taking an example they will ask you each and everything what was the you know uh process that company was following before you

company was following before you implemented this how you have come to 15% tell me the numerator tell me the denominator why did not you consider this why you consider that so they asked me questions on the single word that I used. So I told them uh that my previous company was using an internal tool to schedule uh for no it was for TATA. Sorry. So I shared one story that my inter you know company was using an internal tool for the claim verification. verification. Mhm. Mhm. So they asked me like what was the name of the tool? When did the company started it? Uh what was the API like?

started it? Uh what was the API like? What was the UI like? So I didn't expect questions there but yeah they asked me. Got it. Wow. And and is it ever advisable to be like um actually you know you're right that is something I should have considered. I did not consider that and if I do maybe the efficiency would be closer to 12% instead of 15. Yes. Yes. Is that a good thing to do? Okay. Like yes. So if like I would say if you're answering in the star format your most important part is the action and the result. action will come first then you will have the result and you just cannot scratch the surface.

and you just cannot scratch the surface. You have to dig deep. You have to tell like how this result has come up. Mhm. Mhm. You know you have to give your all maths that you have done everything you know if and they prefer answers which shows depth in the result. That makes sense naturally right because that shows that you've done your homework. you're not just spouting random numbers, you know, out of thin air. And are you allowed to bring So the way I'm visualizing this is if I were in your position, I would for every project that I mention on my resume, I would have like a detailed breakdown of all of my action items, all of my numbers, where they're coming from, right? It's

where they're coming from, right? It's just easiest if you have it written down because you can then structure your thoughts accordingly. So, are you allowed to bring in materials or do you do you have to like come up with everything on the spot without any uh supplemental materials? So I didn't use any material but yeah I have heard uh if you tell the HR or interviewer you can have rough notes okay uh where you can just you know writing keywords okay scribble just like a cheat sheet almost yes cheat sheet you can have that that's not an issue and what I did I asked 60 seconds up front before answering any question so got it I told each one of my interview that I'll be taking 60 to 90 seconds before

I'll be taking 60 to 90 seconds before you know answering you to articulate my thoughts and to put it in a right and proper way. So don't rush for your answers. Take your time. Uh for one hour round you can expect at least three questions and at max five questions and obviously this is not including follow-ups, right? Because you will have followup. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I actually that's so interesting. So I'm sure it must have happened where they asked you a question. You probably knew like more or less what you wanted to say but you still stopped yourself and you were still like no I still need 60 seconds. Is that right? Yes. Yes.

seconds. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Obviously, I prepared it so I know, okay, this is what, you know, I'm going to answer for this. But I still took my time. I still paused. I still took my uh 60 to 90 seconds and they are patient enough to give you that time. That's not That is so interesting. And you didn't feel pressured that they were just watching you while you, you know, kind of were thinking or something to be honest. Yeah. With couple of interviewers, it was uh little uh you know, intense, but yeah. But yeah, others were kind enough and uh that's awesome, man. Wow. I mean, you are definitely much more confident than I am. I can tell you that much because I would just crack. I would just be like, it's

just crack. I would just be like, it's 30 seconds. I have a decent idea of what I want to say. I would just be like, okay, let's go. Like, let's just break the silence. It's too awkward, you know. Um, but I believe in one theory. Go ahead. No, no, please go ahead. I believe in one theory and I I actually started uh following it from last couple of years only. Uh I read it somewhere that you don't have to figure out 100% of the thing that you are starting right just start just take a step and it uh it's it's valid for anything that you are doing either for you know interview or for anything that you are doing. uh so even thought you know I started in my

so even thought you know I started in my mind when you know I was taking 60 to 90 seconds I was first thinking about the situation task thenction then so once I thought okay I have now the situation and task with me clearly in my mind I started you know speaking about it and eventually you know as as I was speaking I was thinking of okay this is this was the problem and I did this for that so eventually the action and the result part would come, you know, organically.

part would come, you know, organically. Organically. Yeah. And also you get into kind of a flow state, right? When you're starting to say these answers, you you know, it's like, yeah, you're locked in. You know what you want to say and you have like a right, you know, a good flow going. Correct. Yeah. And I I love what you said about just start and you will figure it out as you go because Yeah, that's literally word to word the theme of my show. Like Ready said too, that's literally what it stands for. And I love it when organically through conversation a guest will say or reinforce that long-standing belief I have which is exactly what you said

have which is exactly what you said right like yeah the only way to learn is by doing and doing is just everything just always boils down to doing. If you're not doing things you're probably not going to make it. So um before we move on from this, any final thoughts just specifically around the Amazon interview experience that you would want our listeners to know that might be listening and I know you've covered it in great detail but I wanted to make sure if maybe something any aspect that we did not cover or anything that you would want to mention just around the interview piece. So yeah but yeah just to take one more minute n uh course after giving this loop I didn't get the offer because I was

didn't get the offer because I was interviewing for a business analyst role and uh my result was that uh uh that panelist think that you are a better fit for a program manager. So I had to give the loop again for a program manager. Oh wow man. No, I wanted to share it like intentionally because people who will be listening uh my like my motive is to tell them that not to give up you know I again interviewed for a program manager loop and I did it five hours straight uh back to back in one single day.

to back in one single day. So when that recruiter came back to you after 25 days that was I thought you said that was for a TPM role but no it was was for the business analyst. Got it. Got it. Got it. Oh man. And then were they very different from each other or were they mostly the same like the two loops that you gave? So for uh business analyst loop I focus mostly on the analytics and SQL the technical side and for the program management loop I focus mostly on the stakeholder management cross functional uh you know working style and non- tech skills you would say. Interesting. And why did you do that?

Interesting. And why did you do that? like and I know it like kind of feels obvious but did you have any signal? Did somebody tell you did you ask the recruiter that this was the right move because it it feels pretty like yes yes a pretty ballsy move pardon my language to to to do this. Yeah they shared the feedback and uh at that time I had already spent four months in the process. Exactly. It's just it's just unbelievable. Yeah. And I didn't want to give up at that time. And I thought now it's like do or die. And exactly. Yeah. I mean, what do you have to lose, right? You've already you're like a Amazon interviewing veteran at this point. You just do it for fun. You know, you could probably clear these

know, you could probably clear these blindfolded at this point given how many you you've already cleared. No, that's awesome, man. Yeah, thanks so much for sharing that. that does really change or you know it just adds such a you know rich color to your entire experience that even after all of this it wasn't enough but you kept going and then it was enough so yeah kudos to your um perseverance there and you know for not giving up um thank you of course and then yeah really just the last segment here just wanted to quickly touch on something you said in the very beginning and again totally understand if this is outside of your you know what you're allowed to say on a public domain but yeah um how and I guess maybe we can

but yeah um how and I guess maybe we can even remove Amazon from this entire uh question right I guess what I'm getting at is with the advent of AI with the rise of AI now again if there is a student currently that aims or dreams of getting a TPM role at we can say any tech organization um obviously AI is now something a skill that they're expected to have firstly if you could confirm that okay great and if so maybe could you talk us through how um a student could go about upskilling themselves maybe any resources that you found that were helpful or even just kind of like a framework that they could use that okay this is the skill sets that I need specifically around AI and here's where to go to get got it uh so specifically if we are talking about the TPM uh role or any

talking about the TPM uh role or any role I would say if any student wants to you know uh pursue their career in tech side first you have to understand like where do you want to go so if you want to go in the software development side or if you want to go for a technical program product manager accordingly you have to uh start learning about it. So as a program manager or as a product manager you are not expected to build something right uh at least not on a larger scale. Yes. Yes. So you are more expected to leverage it.

So you are more expected to leverage it. You are expected to uh get rid of the repetitive task that you are doing or replacing it with AI to save your time. you have to bring in uh you know some AI within your day-to-day work where you can showcase okay I am more efficient now I can spend more time so let's say specifically for you know Amazon and you can you can include this everyone you know knows this okay document writing is a very important yes that's true because there's no presentations right yes yes and uh and they are very thorough you have to follow you know uh a format got it now if I'm writing a weekly you know document that I have to present to management every week and if I'm

management every week and if I'm spending 7 to 8 hours I can try to automate it through an internal AI tool. Y Y as a program manager I can do that. Y Y this is what you are expected to do. A lot of companies you know where they have resources they have their internal uh you know AI tools or internal apps uh you know which you can leverage. So in Amazon specifically we have one platform where you can develop your own apps like for a day-to-day work. So that's awesome. Wow. If you know I have to send uh minutes of meeting for example uh I can just put rough notes or I can just take the transcript from the meeting like we are doing. We can just put transcript you know in this meeting

put transcript you know in this meeting and I can just copy paste the transcript. It will prepare each and everything for me that I need. Yep. Nice. Previously it used to be like you have to put in few hours you have to refine your you know work and then only you will be able to send it. But now with the help of AI I can do this. And if you know if you just entered the uh a master you know program and uh you want to learn more about AI I would say take few courses on Udemi that's what you know I did when I was you know learning uh more about AI. Uh I had a

learning uh more about AI. Uh I had a friend uh in Facebook who helped me with some of the courses. Awesome. Awesome. problem is that everything is changing in you know 6 months. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Just Yes. Couple of years back we were talking about LLMs. Now we are talking about gen and now there's new term called agentic care. Agentare. Exactly. Yeah. And uh two days back only I learned that there's one more thing which is multiple agent agent multiple agents you know who are taking decisions for any task that you are doing. So yeah if someone can try to learn more you know in this side it it will be good for them and don't think that you have to develop something but just think how you can make your repetitive work more you know.

repetitive work more you know. Exactly. Yeah, I love that. That's a very helpful call out. And I think once you start to figure out how your repetitive work can get automated, you can already be at a point where you can probably start thinking about developing some things as well, right? So, it kind of goes hand in hand. But I like that. I like what you said because it's not that overwhelming, right? You just, you know, figure out how to make your own life easier and the rest will fall into place as needed. Um yeah. Um, honestly that this has been such an enriching experience for me to like learn about your journey and obviously you've seen again like I don't mean to beat this dead horse but yeah I

mean to beat this dead horse but yeah I just feel just inspired really you know listening to your story and what you have to go through to get to where you are but hopefully you know you'll agree that it was worth it right and you know that's what makes life so interesting and so worth it overall cuz things have a way of working out if you you know want something badly enough, prepare for it and really work really really hard for it. So really appreciate you taking the time here today. I know that anybody listening that is looking at TPM rules whether or not at Amazon will be hugely helped by what you shared and yeah I hope you to continue to support you from a distance and you know continue to

a distance and you know continue to engage with you especially on LinkedIn. I know you put like a lot of helpful content out there and yeah truly thank you so much for taking the time today. Thank you Nan. This is a great you know conversation and uh I I wanted to thank you for inviting me first of all and you know I wanted to share my story mostly to you know uh inspire or help people to give them this thing that do not give up uh you know you have to do your work you have to do your part there's no shortcut to success you have to do hard work then

to success you have to do hard work then you prepare it then you speak to you know try to speak to lot of people try to learn from their experience try to uh you know learn from their learnings and uh you know just just keep trying. I know there were ups and downs in my journey also but the only thing that I you know kept doing is to not give up. So just keep going keep doing the things that you are doing and uh eventually you will be in a place where uh you know you want to.

uh you know you want to. Amazing. That was so good. Thank you. Thank you Nama. Thank you so much.