so I joined Tesla and then after four or 5 months they announced layoffs in which I was impacted you'll want to do everything by yourself you want to create the Maximum Impact but you later realize that you just cannot create all the impact all by yourself you know for more in the sense that there's so much money out in there in the market right so at least one should try can you walk me through the tool stack that you were using at each of these companies I've written a newsletter and also there's aab repository I maintain in which I keep updating the resources I've been using flead Code now has more than 3,000 problems and you cannot just do all while I come from that world in a lot of ways because I've been away from it for

ways because I've been away from it for so long that I'm now an outsider in something where I really shouldn't be an outsider the perception of these 10x Engineers is just that they couldn't care less about what other people on the team are doing let's say 10-year-old creates an account on Instagram saying that he's 21 years old we have identifiers let's say you make a post that hey it's my 12th birthday so the detector will identify the media or those captions what advice do you have for any current Master student that wants to be a software engineer keeping in mind the current market conditions the only thing I can say is welcome to The Ready Set do podcast where we learn from journeys of not experts who are just two steps ahead of us I'm Naman Pand and in this episode featured not expert is hon Pand hon is a

featured not expert is hon Pand hon is a senior software engineer at meta and has extensive experience as a software engineer in companies like Salesforce SA Tesla and Amazon himon takes us through a day in the life at meta his career trajectory that saw him make a number of well-timed and opportunistic jumps to bigger and better opportunities the technology Stacks used at Big Tech how to break into software engineering as a beginner some notable qualities of 10x engineers and many other fascinating topics we also discussed what current students in btec and or master's degrees can do to find employment yes just solving lead code problems is not enough and finally the fascinating work that hon does with them Behavior regulatory aspects at meta in keeping with our theme of learning from somebody that's

theme of learning from somebody that's just two steps ahead of us instead of an expert my goal with this episode is to highlight Hon's unique journey and also to nudge you to subscribe to his incredible newsletter if you'd like this is The Ready Set to podcast and to support it please subscribe to the channel and or leave me up to a five star rating Spotify and now without any further Ado here's hmon heon welcome thank you thank you uh really appreciate it I've been listening to a lot of your earlier episodes and and and happy to be part of this appreciate you sharing that let's jump into the deep end of things here um with respect to you know staying the life at meta so what can you tell us

the life at meta so what can you tell us about what it's like to be a software engineer at meta maybe you could just even pick today for instance given it's just maybe towards the end of your work day sure yeah so today was my uh work from home day uh but generally I go to office like three times a week uh kind of a nice hybrid setup uh uh generally uh I I I think I just just leave from my home at 8:30 8:45 and then you know be there at office about 9:30 settle in have a coffee and everything like that uh uh generally probably like 30% on an average 30 to 35% of my time uh you know goes in meetings they're like can be

goes in meetings they're like can be standups can be project meetings team meetings one-on ones and you know other other initiatives running across the company uh that that's pretty much I'm I'm I'm a senior engineer there so so a lot of things uh revolve around collaboration uh other than that I think 20 20 30% of the time I I get time to you know as well code uh on my projects which I'm working on or or other things uh mentorships and all those kind of initiatives I've been running around uh pretty much yeah we take a lunch break 45 minutes around 12 to 12:45 with the team nice fun chats we have food in the office so so that's that's not an issue

office so so that's that's not an issue uh and then yeah um generally meetings last till three or two uh because half of my team sits in New York so we kind of balance it out uh so I I'm left with Focus time at the end of the day uh which is difficult because I'm already full with lunch so not very productive but but that that's what you have to deal with uh so yeah I get a nice Focus time at at the end of the day uh you know to to work on my projects and to get get things done uh and and yeah uh I I leave office from around like 5 515 uh

I leave office from around like 5 515 uh reach at home or maybe like it's not a very uh hard kind of set up if if if I have some work I'll just leave at three and then do two hours at home or or you know what how how how the work is the deadline is uh you you'll try to uh manage that stuff but yeah generally 30 35% times in me then 30 35% time in pretty much coding uh doing Project work and then the rest goes in you know mentoring other Engineers or running other initiatives and and all those kind of things that makes sense appreciate that deep dive something you said kind of struck out just a little bit you you

of struck out just a little bit you you referenced in passing that because you're now a senior engineer that it sounded like that has change some things as far as how your time is spent so when you were um just an engineer not senior engineer were you spending more time writing code am I right in assuming that yeah yeah yeah that I think uh like when when I started uh as a new grad engineer I I used to write the most amount of code right because uh you you get tasks in which you have to execute so that that's basically your responsibilities are of course you can you know participate more uh delegate to other new Engineers but but that's not your Prime responsibility uh you know

Prime responsibility uh you know creating impact by writing Cod Cod was my primary responsibility as you grow in career uh right it's it's it's like you have more accountability more responsibilities in a sense that you're just not responsible for your own work right you need to grow other Engineers working on your team uh you need to create a scope such that you know threes and fours or you know I mean like other level of Engineers can grow around you as well so so that that you need to learn the art of Delegation of course you'll want to do everything by yourself you want to create the Maximum Impact but you you later realize that you just cannot create all the impact all by yourself uh and but if you enable others to do it uh and work as a team that that

to do it uh and work as a team that that that's a more scalable approach uh so yeah and you also got pulled into you know a lot of other architecture meetings best sister teams and you know cross collaboration so that also increases the the meeting Cadence for you uh but yeah I I actually yeah sometimes missed the the the time when I you know like I was not involved in all these meetings and get code a lot uh but yeah but I think as you as you grow uh you need to scale yourself uh in in this manner I mean there are there are different AR types of course for software engineer right like uh I know some senior engineer who who are specific coding machines like you know

specific coding machines like you know they implement the most uh the most complex parts of the system they don't get inv involved in these meetings because everyone knows that you know like implementing code and executing uh is is their Prime responsibilities but they' have taken the route I am more of a uber TL kind of archetype you know in which you're leading projects in which six0 seven people are working you create scope for them you delegate you make sure that everything is working projects are launching on time uh so I operate in that kind of U archetype so yeah that that that's pretty much my day today looks like that's really helpful it almost sounds like from what you're describing it's like a you know

describing it's like a you know intersection between software engineering as well as in some ways project management just a little bit is the am I right in kind of assuming that or is it not like that at all yeah yeah you can uh I think spe specifically at meta it's like you you you can do a lot of things right you you can take the role of a project manager along with being the team lead uh I see you can also influence a lot of product decisions you working with your product managers that hey I feel like if we do it like this it can have a different impact or you work with data teams figure out you know where the product is

figure out you know where the product is missing that angle or where the funnel is getting broken why are you know users not going from Step a to step B uh bring out these data points work with product and you know like create create and propose projects around that so you you are product manager uh as well in in in some some are areia so it's yeah there are like lot of hats to wear uh it depends on everyone like how they want to like uh manage their project but but yeah you're right uh a lot of project management is also involved in being a TL uh specifically on the projects I'm working on uh and then you also you know create a high level plan of how we are

create a high level plan of how we are going to hit the milestones and achieve everything and then you decide on like how you want to split the work how you want to delegate the work are there more resources needed if yes you you go to leadership and then you work with them uh what's the scope of the project and all those kind of things also like you need to take care of as the as the engineering lead for the project I see I mean yeah I I'd always heard of you know the whole meta move fast and break things uh you know archetype but it really does sound like from what you're describing it that it it just sounds like that's just the culture that you get to you know play around in on a

get to you know play around in on a day-to-day so just from there just for I guess a little bit of context for our listeners do you mind providing a quick snapshot of your career and like your past that is that has currently brought you to meta um right now sure uh I'll try to give it as like a short uh chis sponsor but but it's going to get long I know it it it always does uh so yeah uh like uh just from the start I did my undergrad uh from New Delhi IP University I'm born and raised in New Delhi uh and was there till my grad then I came to us for my masters uh from ston

I came to us for my masters uh from ston Brook University directly as a fresher or did you have any directly as a fresher I had no work like I graduated in 2016 uh came to Stony Brook in 2016 I graduated from Stony Brook End of 2017 uh between then I interned at Amazon uh and then I got my first job which is started in 2018 Feb at Tesla due to which I also moved to Baya because Tesla was around area then it was like it was a very uh chaotic job uh you know at that time in 2018 model 3 was just about to get launched so there were a lot of things going on around in Tesla uh they also did the uh RF layoffs uh right around that time and I was part of that as well

that time and I was part of that as well so like I joined uh uh Tesla and then after four or five months they announced layoffs in which I was impacted um fortunately this sance package was like good they gave us like 3 4 months you know of pay of health insurance and everything also my Visa was be taken care of by the company so I had like 3 four months to find a new job uh Market was also not as bad as it currently is so yeah I was I was able to find uh couple of offers uh and I I actually eventually joined sap Labs uh which is which is again a like a Enterprise company it also based on P Alto so I I

company it also based on P Alto so I I joined the multic cloud architecture team there uh which is like I I had I had not worked on gcp or Alibaba cloud or even AWS like uh so I got a chance to you know explore those areas in sap I stayed there for like one and a half years uh pretty fun company uh it's just that uh more on the slower side of uh execution speed and you know it's a it's an Enterprise company so uh like they they have their own timelines and releases there's only so much there's only so fast you can move there yeah yeah that's true uh but yeah really loved my time there I think I think I learned a lot in the cloud domain uh in

learned a lot in the cloud domain uh in in those years uh and then I started also interviewing uh I was also seeing like you know the the money my friends are making and you know it's it's significantly more than what I was making at recip so I started interviewing around that time 2019 uh also interviewed at a lot of places but I I got offer from Salesforce which is like very similar company to sap yeah but but yeah I think the more more like kind of uh more in the news and you know pays more more pugs and everything like that so my transition to sap to Salesforce was purely on competition side uh that I was getting more money uh and I realized that it's it's probably going to be the for same amount of work I was getting more money so I moved to

so I moved to yeah it was also fun at Salesforce I got to uh work in the city San Francisco so I again a whole different vibe you know uh like going to the city daily and then uh like moving around sales force starts such a pretty great office uh and it was like a different energy right like there were lot more uh like new folks joining and there was a more more organized process compared top uh so I worked there I ALS so like uh like I think when I joined Salesforce Cod also happened at that time so like everything went remote at that time uh but yeah uh I think uh

at that time uh but yeah uh I think uh in Salesforce I was also working on a lot of cloud specific things uh right static analysis cloud services all these kind of things which which which I really enjoyed I also got promoted at like at Salesforce within one year so I joined as an MTS and then I become a senior MTS uh at uh Salesforce itself uh and that's sorry what does MTS stand for sorry uh MTS is member of technical staff I think it's the equivalent of sd1 to SD 1.5 kind of thing okay and then I got promoted to S smts senior member of technical staff which is more of sd2 uh if you if you compare it with you know Google and Amazon and all those companies uh but yeah that has been the only time I've been promoted uh in my

only time I've been promoted uh in my career uh so there was really special yeah and then I up traded as a smts for a year right in 2021 uh it was going good I absolutely loving the job my manager was really good I was growing uh but 2021 I realized that like Market was you know very pretty good at that time like I was seeing on blind a lot of folks are getting crazy offers 400k 500k and like and was kind of you know foro in the sense that that there's so much money out in there in the market right so at least one should try right the the it's it's it's a it's once in a lifetime

it's it's it's a it's once in a lifetime for you you don't know how the market like they're going to sustain so I started interviewing uh at that time um just just for the sake that we'll see how it goes I uh right so I started preparing I started interviewing and like it was really good I mean I think 2021 was probably the best time to interview I I got like five offers uh in in that time frame right uh I got offer from Tik Tok from LinkedIn from Square from Splunk and you so so basically and from meta as well uh and like it was also a good leverage to negotiate uh right but but I think that there was there was there was a pretty pretty

there was there was a pretty pretty special time as well uh for meta uh so I was operating as a sd2 right and meta E5 is a senior uh but I was able to crack interviews for senior at meta so so I joined as a senior right uh and I was like very scared as well because I haven't done that kind of like I haven't operated at that level uh in Salesforce and meta is also more intense uh in work culture and and all those like areas so so it was it was really tough I would say like my first year at meta was really tough I I kind of like overworked and uh you know try to just just to make

and uh you know try to just just to make maintain and to survive in the company uh really really uh like I I work like 10 12 hours a day um which which which is fine uh I mean like when you join a different company and you join at like higher level there's obviously more ramp up time you need and also meta has a very kind of different culture and you know compared to Salesforce it's a product company it moves fast uh so a lot of things I I had to uh kind of absorb uh but I yeah after year one it it got better I got a sense of how how things work at meta how to lead projects

things work at meta how to lead projects how to operate as a TL and then like I think since the last two years I've been uh I've been working as a senior s it's it's going going good so far uh but yeah that has been my uh kind of career path meta is my fourth company uh total experience I have is around 7 years now that's so interesting and I have so so many you know call outs from what you just laid out so I'm going to try to get to them one by one the first and the biggest one obviously being maybe it's not so obvious but um the yeah just my

not so obvious but um the yeah just my first question around that is can you walk me through the like tool stack that you were using at each of these companies so just for some context um hmon I uh am a computer science undergrad engineer and then I was um with PWC in India for close to a couple years where I've done the really the only Development I've had to do in my career then I moved to the US for my masters in Engineering Management and that was kind of the end of my code writing you know days so while I come from that world in a lot of ways because I've been away from it for so long that you know I'm now kind of an outsider in

you know I'm now kind of an outsider in something where I really shouldn't be an outsider so I guess what what's informing this question or the reason I ask is I know there's so many tools and techn techologies out there that all of these big companies use and having been in this industry for such a long time now and clearly been crushing it in in these industry um yeah can you walk us through the specifically at each company what type of what language maybe or what tools you were using to write yeah definitely I think when I started at Tesla uh the stack was mainly cop uh like so cop SQL pretty uh like the MVP stack which uh right which existed uh jQuery C SQL uh which I I hadn't worked

jQuery C SQL uh which I I hadn't worked on C before but I had I had worked on Java which is pretty very similar like if you know Java you can easily easily understand C uh when I went to sap it was mostly like because I was only working on the cloud services it was generally python or go or you know scripting uh cloud services or creating abstraction of layers over ews so it was generally Python and go and I I remember doing some projects on react as well uh like so sap has very traditional their own Technologies as well for UI but I was very keen because react was picking at that time so I just wanted to learn it for myself as well so I kind of you

it for myself as well so I kind of you know convince everyone in my a that we should do on react so I can learn and also you know do do those kind of things uh so yeah I I worked on react at that time then Salesforce was like all Java um some maybe 10% python but mostly everything I worked on the core product of Salesforce which which um I I think it's it's still Java so Java was Java is my kind of comfort zone I do I do interviews in Java I was doing uh Java in my undergrad as well so uh yeah so that's basically uh Java and then meta is it's it's uh

uh Java and then meta is it's it's uh like a they have a PHP like a abstraction of PHP called hack uh which is used here and then react for front end things I am a backend developer mostly so I I only work with ha part of things but I would say everything is transferable like I mean like I I don't think that like you need specific tutorials for hack or stuff like that I mean if you know Java and if you look into the codebase try to understand you'll you'll get it so uh if you know any objectoriented language you'll probably be able to understand other without like without much effort so I would I would say like I think I get a lot of questions from like students as

lot of questions from like students as well like which language to pick and you know U so there there's no there's no answer uh it's like whatever comfortable with I know C++ and Java like people generally start with uh just just pick that and and like build fundamentals on that language uh it's there's a very high possibility that whatever company you join uh like you you'll get a different text stack but because you have your fundamentals cleared for a particular language you'll be able to easily transition to any any of the text stack makes sense that that seems to be in line with you know what I have kind of also not just observed but have been told by other um you know people in the industry so I guess on that topic of

industry so I guess on that topic of what you said about having fundamentals clear in any given language and that then translates um what tips or you know what can you share about all of these specifically for um software Engineers the you know types of technical interviews or I know there's obviously coding rounds and such um and I know there's a bunch of resources out there such as lead code and all of that but I'm trying to kind of specifically find out your you know proven clearly proven because you got so many offers um experience with these tools and what you might recommend to somebody that's looking to you know potentially crack uh software engineer roles at all of these big companies yeah yeah uh i' I've written a newsletter and also there's a like a GitHub repository I maintain in

like a GitHub repository I maintain in which you know I keep updating the the resources I've been using uh but generally uh like DS algo is pretty much the most important uh like you know if you want to enter into big Tech or if you are a student who's you know like looking for first job uh generally all companies are going to ask you lead code style problems uh but lead code now has more than 3,000 problems and it you cannot just do all so you need to like there are like 15 or 20 patterns right which which you need to understand and uh kind of practice to figure out like when to apply what like two pointer sliding window youo Dynamic programing these are some of the examples of the patterns uh but I think generally like uh I do two list which are on lead code

uh I do two list which are on lead code one is called top interview questions it's a list of 150 questions and I think it has almost all the patterns covered uh and then there is a list called grind 75 uh it's also by one of the it's very popular by one of the creators U so so that's also pretty good all the patterns covered so combine both of them are 250 questions and I think if you like practice them you should understand you know like what pattern to apply in what cases uh which and and that's pretty much it I mean if you go to my lead code profile you'll see that I've I've done 500 plus questions but if I if I am

500 plus questions but if I if I am interviewing I'll just probably go over these 200 250 again uh that that's pretty much it that's about for DSA right if you're interviewing for midlevel or senior roles there comes uh system design interview as well uh for that uh there's a there's a course on educative.io called grocking the system design which is a good good starting point uh like you know to to get your Feats on that but it's a very wide topic like the more you know the better uh for interview as well as for your software engineering career there are a lot of books like designing data intensive applications there are books from alexu on system design interviews uh which you can go um there are many great YouTube

can go um there are many great YouTube channels uh one from God of sand uh right who talks about uh system design uh and and there are like other channels as well i' I've mentioned them in the GitHub repo but yeah if you have if you GitHub repo but yeah if you have two three months I would say uh it's probably not uh like feasible to do it all but I think if you're a midlevel uh grocking this design interview course is pretty much enough if you're senior staff then then you should like definitely know uh everything because the interviewer is going to go as deep as possible across different areas so so you need to get your Concepts cleared but yeah that's that's pretty much uh like the the more you practice the better you get uh and with every interview you you learn a different

interview you you learn a different thing uh right specifically a lot of people also undermine the behavioral interviews right but I think that's that's really important uh like you you should know what projects you have worked on uh what challenges you have faced uh you know like uh and how to basically sell your story in the interview is also especially like at senior at senior plus levels you're going to communicate 50% of your time uh like across the career so they they really test you on how how effectively communicate like you know how you are able to convince someone on an idea how do you propose an idea all these kind of skills also really matter so so I think what I recommend is like whatever projects you're working on uh you know

projects you're working on uh you know write down stories from that project like did you face a conflict did you face a challenge how you how you resolve the challenge or or you know like there are like certain behavioral questions which which get get asked a lot so prepare stories from your experience like on that don't just think in the interview that I'm going to say that just just have it written rehearse it before for the interview and and make sure you you know seem confident and and did not like seem like a liar in the interviews yeah yeah really appreciate that deep dive I'm going to probably bug you offline for you know your GitHub link and all of those amazing resources that you mentioned and I'm going to link all of them in the show notes for any

all of them in the show notes for any listener that you know might be interested in checking those out um I'm also really curious to talk about or learn from your newsletter setting up experience so we will get to that in just a minute but um just to dial back well maybe not dial back but just to examine what we just went over from just a slightly different perspective if somebody say is a student right now um and I'm talking like undergrad students let's say junior year or third year of engineering for instance um and I'm mostly asking this question for my nephew who is right now um and I he better be listening so he keeps asking me um you know like yeah we already covered what what language I pretty much told him the same thing that you've

told him the same thing that you've shared which is just pick any doesn't matter but understand it properly make sure you understand the fundamentals the other thing he asks me is some of the lead code stuff or religious geks for geks whatever it feels a little bit inacessible to him in that he's like this is just way too advanced for me so any tips on in terms of people or you know students at that level that are looking for their first breakthrough into software engineering that you can share yeah I I think like generally like the first step would be you know you should know what data structures are right like what does an array do what does what does the hashmap do why why would someone pick a link like a link

would someone pick a link like a link list over an array why would someone pick the you know AR list over array uh like what what are the different differences between these uh you know all and other like sorting algorithms like how does a quick sort work or uh what are the different types of sorting uh and all those kind of things like I'm I'm guessing uh if you're well versed with that and you are like looking to practice questions like DSL go right I would say if you're if you're let's say starting on lead code try with the easy questions first right and see if you're able to do that uh generally I I use I time box like when I'm like solving a

time box like when I'm like solving a question like you know you you can just get lost and spend two hours working on a question and and nothing happens uh I that's I mean some people do it but that's that's not how I do my preparation I generally time box so I'm going to think uh let's say 30 minutes on the question you know using a pen and paper figure out like how if I can solve it or not if I'm what I'm thinking right uh and then if it's not clicking I'll I'll just look at the solution uh either you look at the lead code editorial solution or you there are like a lot of YouTube channel as well like I think there's a Indian YouTuber called striber

there's a Indian YouTuber called striber his channel is called take you forward like he explains the lead code problems in a in a very easy manner uh uh I mean that he he explains it in Hindi so if you know Hindi like he's he's he's a very good educator who can do that there are a lot of questions like need code explains all the lead code problems on English which is also uh pretty pretty interesting so yeah go go watch out those videos um see how they have solved it like you know what was what was the mindset behind the solution uh figure out what was the Gap in your approach uh versus their approach right and try to try to find patterns that like maybe you

try to find patterns that like maybe you don't repeat in the next questions uh and then like once you understood it don't write the code at that time because it's fresh in your mind you'll probably just write it uh attempted after 24 hours or 48 hours right and then like after 48 hours you'll you'll definitely not be able to write in the one go again there'll be some gaps right yeah uh and then figure out like what those gaps are then look at the video again or the solution again uh and then attempt it after again 24 hours uh and then that's how your Concepts will be cleared right like what what things you are missing uh but yeah always time box there there's no point of spending two hours on a problem uh and making no progress uh that's what I used to do and I I still do it uh but yeah start with

I I still do it uh but yeah start with the easy problems uh and then look at the solutions attempt it and then I think as as you started practicing more you you'll get better and better and then you can move to you know medium problems and little hard problems yeah and so from what you're laying out it it does sound like there's really no way around practicing problems online on these platforms right that is that has to be something that any birding software engineer has to do right yeah I mean if you are a software engineer and if you want to Target big tech companies or even medium tech companies uh like you cannot just ignore lead code if you you are if you ignore lead code if you you are if you're very skilled right that based on your skills you can crack a

based on your skills you can crack a remote job or a startup or you know like you can probably build an app in 3 days uh that kind of skill then probably you can land a job at startup or you know remote job or you know companies like that but I think if you are targeting big Tech uh if you want to Target Google Microsoft Amazon or any midtech they they are most probably going to ask you DS questions and like yeah lead go style questions makes sense um are you familiar with the notion of a top 1% engineer in terms of software engineering domain I mean uh yeah I know like there are a lot of terms top one person 10x engineers and yeah exactly

person 10x engineers and yeah exactly yeah all those kind of things uh I I know uh like some Engineers who are who are way more uh productive uh than others uh but but yeah I mean but I think it's it's a it's more of a team sport software engineering right so you you you cannot have a team with all the 10x Engineers uh right that also will lead to some kind of problems uh so so yeah like I generally I I know a lot of people are more productive than others but I think you generally need to look uh and I think that's what a lot of leaders and managers also say that you

leaders and managers also say that you need to look as how the team is working ra rather than individual but yeah I also wrote a new letter on like 10x engus uh right like what what their behaviors are what their attributes are how how they operate and like how they make more impact than than others in the team yeah um are you at all willing to speak on that at all cuz I'm just really curious and I would read the newsletter right now but because you're obviously in front of I think I'd rather just ask you definitely uh I think in the newsletter I wrote like 10 points uh I like think the the ones which are top on

like think the the ones which are top on my mind is like definitely they they they work based on the impact right like they they are very smart in picking the projects uh like if there are three projects in front of them they can quickly determine what would be the impact of all three uh and then they pick the most impactful project to work on right so like I think they create Maximum Impact by spending least amount of hours uh that's that's I think very solid 10x engineer others is like they they they they know the art to delegate right they know how they can grow themselves and grow others as well by delegating a lot of stuff so they don't spend a lot of time on mundan tasks you know like which which are I mean not impactful for them but can be factful for like you know a junior engineer who

for like you know a junior engineer who wants to implement more code and those kind of things so they they're very smart in delegating stuff and uh like achieving achieving goals through others uh that's also like a highest quality of a 10x engineer uh third is like uh like what I've seen in my experience working with you know a lot of smart folks at meta and other companies like they they very rarely repeat their mistakes like for example if they have a m they have made a m like a make a made a mistake right and they got a feedback on it like rather than like trying to justify the mistake they'll they'll take the

mistake they'll they'll take the feedback uh they'll they'll work on it they'll improve and then they'll they'll make new mistakes they'll they'll don't like repeat the same mistake uh that's that's basically also like I think it's it's a it's a it's a huge quality and I think the most underrated one is generally uh you'll like if you think of a 10x engineer like you'll have a image in mind like first who's you know like very good at coding and uh just just like sits in their Zone and code but basically the guy from iroot you know if you SE TV show yeah yeah or or you like the switch at Hendricks in Silicon Valley like you know put the headphones on and like coding the entire night but rather not I think those people are like

rather not I think those people are like very fun to work with like you know everyone on the team uh talks to them about their projects or you know hang out with them wants to have lunch with them them chills out with them in the offsides uh so I mean very very likable personality people want to work with uh that that's what I've observed which opens like because everyone wants to talk to them everyone shares their project with them which opens a lot of Po to them as well right like they can they can mentor more folks they can help other folks uh and and you know create impact through that as well uh so I think the these are some of the qualities on on top of my mind uh which which which I mean definitely not

which which which I mean definitely not the ones which like are working like just by themselves even if they are more productive like but their contribution to team as a team like like how the team is growing is not much but rather than someone you know who's who who takes the team and enable the impact through others I think those are definitely uh like more impactful uh as a tenx engineer that's very insightful especially two things you said there the first being that they're able to delegate that is just not something I would have guessed ever because as you said the perception of these people you know these 10x Engineers is just that they're they couldn't care less about what other people on the team are doing they're just in the shadows huddle over and just you know writing codes zoned in

and just you know writing codes zoned in as they say so which is very interesting and that's not a perspective that I had considered and so yeah that's that's really cool I'm definitely looking forward to you know reading that particular you know newsletter in you know just to get to the bottom of it but with that I also do want to kind of bring up the topic of the newsletter so um again just for some context um I have been on the fence of starting my newsletter for a while I have a vague idea of what I would want to be talking about but what can you tell us about let's begin with why did you start your newslet yeah so I was uh I was first of

newslet yeah so I was uh I was first of all I mean if you're starting just just do it I I was actually thinking of starting like from six months and I I I just wish that I had started sooner uh so like yeah I think I was already writing very actively on LinkedIn uh I think I've been writing for like last one one and a half years now on LinkedIn uh and then like I used to share similar things you know software engineering growth uh and also I talk about a lot of like different things as well uh which are going around in the industry or or around the world um and then I see a lot of you know like amazing writers like

of you know like amazing writers like Jordan Ryan you know Gregor uh who whom I used to follow on LinkedIn like they they they were starting their newsletters and and all those kind of things um and and then like uh it it kind of uh like and I I'm talking about like June July of 2023 right uh and and I like did not know because I I didn't read any newsletter like what what's that even about like why would you just not write the same thing on LinkedIn right you'll you have more audience uh and then I talk to like you know Jordan Ryan other folks as well and they kind of like nicely explained that uh when you run a newsletter you kind of you know directly talk to your audience and you have a email list they trust you they have

email list they trust you they have signed up for you and you you know know that like whatever piece or whatever content you're putting out it will get delivered to their inbox right uh but that's not the case with Linkin right like if I write something on LinkedIn uh like some posts get 2,000 views some posts get 100,000 views and it's not in my hands right you're just at the mercy of the algorithm yeah yeah yeah so you don't you don't own the algorithm you don't uh own the content uh anything like that uh but with newsletter uh you you're kind of sure that it will reach the audience and it it's up to them whether they want to open or not but at least they know that heon that's brought this this article right so so that that

this this article right so so that that that suck to me that that this is a like a good way of you know directly communicating uh with your community and with your audience uh but I then procrastinated and then I like started the newsletter in January of this year uh but yeah I wish I had started it sooner but it's good uh I've been writing for like almost nine months now I've written a article every week so yeah we've written like 30 35 36 articles uh yeah and I'm really looking forward to it uh I think not just like delivering content to the audience which like everyone wants but I think from from a monetization point of view and from like how it's benefiting you as well like I think a lot of newsletter

well like I think a lot of newsletter economy is growing people uh you know I get a lot of reach outs that hey we want to uh like put a slot in your newsletter uh right that's awesome I'm currently cannot do anything because I'm an H1B Visa but but it kinds of gives you a confidence that you know like you're on the right track and and it is a huge potential to to you know be a side ell or or make some extra income in the future abely so yeah so so that's fun I mean also like one thing I've observed like writing it that it really improves your writing skills right on LinkedIn if

your writing skills right on LinkedIn if you see I'm mostly writing in a very casual manner that hey more like you know like like that how I talk to my friends or like just you know want to put it out a thought or something but newsletter is more formal writing more structured uh you sit you think of an idea you try to structure it you organize your thoughts um then you edit it then you get it reviewed from someone if you want and then you know like create the final piece of content uh which which like which is more kind of official and more formal uh which which really help has like improved my writing skills uh to be honest uh and yeah and I think it is also kind of uh I get to meet a lot of other newsletter writers

meet a lot of other newsletter writers uh like you know build a connection with the ecosystem now yeah yeah because you're part of the ecosystem you get to meet with a lot of folks see what they have been working how they have been growing as an engineer what their future aspirations are uh which which really builds a nice community and and yeah I'm very grateful that I start at least started and not procrastinated like more yeah no that I can relate to what you're saying that you wish you started six months before because I basically feel like that um every other day about my podcast because obviously i' had been sleeping on this for I don't even know like three years or something but yeah definitely understand you know at a

definitely understand you know at a really deep level what you mean by that um and just real quick what did you used to actually build or materialize your newsletter is it just a free tool such as substack or did you go for something more premium like ghost or something no no I yeah I actually uh I think I was stuck between substack beehive or like creating own website and talk to lot of folks and looks I think everyone mentioned that substack is probably the best if you're just starting it out also substack has the recommendation feature like you know which kinds of promotes your content like for example let's say another Creator who's recommending me uh like very high possibility that my contents will be in like their followers

contents will be in like their followers feed as well on the substack app so it increases my chances of visibility uh increases my audience which which leads to a faster growth uh compared to beehive and I think if you create your own website it's it's very difficult to you know spread the spread the word out uh but I think yeah if if you're starting it out sub is it's it's pretty good interesting yeah yeah as you know as just somebody that's done a very basic amount of research on this um yeah that's exactly right what you're sharing about the there's basically two main parts you can either have your own website or have something like substack but this is really helpful for you know really just me in terms of maybe trying to get a better foothold in terms of where that decision lies so I will

where that decision lies so I will reflect on that and appreciate you sharing that experience um from there I kind of want to jump into you know what your experience has been with this huge rise of you know just really gen I feel like pretty much any conversation in the world at this point is it's incomplete it's there's always a you know way to put it in because it's just that relevant especially with something like code because I use it on a fairly regular basis at my work and it has definitely changed the game for me and I don't even write that much code so for somebody that does I'm very curious to learn how or if even it has changed anything for you in your day-to-day or not really definitely I think it's it I think it's it's made me far more

think it's it's made me far more productive uh especially from the coding point of view from the writing point of view and like from like gener point of view as well I think meta also has uh like there internal AI right you know in which you can ask any question that hey I'm looking for this code uh anything can you give me code pointers like it'll give you something hey I'm not sure like how this rejects in this dictionary what you know like whatever you want to do like it will give you code pointer so you don't need to go into code files figure out like you know other person how they have done it and then try to copy paste uh and and you know try to run it on your own like you you'll get

run it on your own like you you'll get an answer from AI which which you can trust uh I think it's like almost if you think it at a scale like 50,000 engineers at meta using it on a regular basis it just tremendously improv the developer productivity of the company uh from a writing point of view as well right like let's say about writing LinkedIn or newsletter right like I can get a lot of ideas from chat GPD as well like for example you can give a prompt that hey I've run a newsletter for software Engineers grow shoot me some ideas you know I can write about which will be helpful for my audience and it will give you some ideas you can probably again fine tune it give more prompts and try to figure out like

more prompts and try to figure out like you know what do you want to write about or like what you are more passionate about uh and I think like generically as well like you know like if I what I've observed is like if I have to ask a question now that hey what would be $100,000 compounded over next 15 years at this rate of interest right yeah uh rather than me opening calculator trying to figure out formula or asking Google or you know things like that I just open chat G it'll give me an answer uh and and and that's done so a lot of lot of these things analytics calculation or

these things analytics calculation or you know maybe writing a formal message to a recruiter or something like all these things have been really easy now uh and yeah so so it it's it made me far productive and I think it's probably like one of the reason you know like a lot of people are now writing newsletter writing LinkedIn post along with their full-time job uh coming up with ideas and doing like you know a lot of things uh at once it's it's and I think that that's what I believe like with the Gen Rising uh this this lot of more people will be creating content consuming content so it's it's also going to be be

content so it's it's also going to be be a huge plus if you're a Creator or or software engineer as well because it will make you more productive yeah just to add on to that I think it also is a really good opportunity for any type of Creator really to have their own voice and authenticity because I feel like in the upcoming sea of content that we're going to all be drowning in it will be those voices that will really stand out that aren't you know written with genetic genetic so I'm sure you have this way more than I do but I'll get you know connect requests or really just um you know messages on LinkedIn every other day that I just you know one glance through

that I just you know one glance through and I know that's written by gen and it really shouldn't I'm I'm not entirely sure on why or how you know yeah really just why it makes me feel like that but I just don't like it like you know I I'll obviously respond and I'll be nice and whatnot but it almost leaves that bad taste in my mouth where that person I feel like is you know I I just wish they had written that message by themselves yeah that's true I agree uh I think you definitely need to be authentic no matter like you know if you're even if you're using chat gbd you can't just rely on chat G to create everything on your own right like maybe

everything on your own right like maybe it can give you a structure maybe it can give you like an idea of how you can do it but your like personality should come through your content or through your message right like I mean and it's pretty easy to catch whatever is written by chart gbt exactly right I mean like yeah no one no one uses Chronicles or em that you were delving into something yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean these kind of things uh like uh I mean like some people might use it but if it's like very looks very Chad jitish like you'll get to know but I think people like when when it got re recently launched there

when it got re recently launched there were like lot of AI tools like almost all of the my LinkedIn comments were like AI generated uh but I think people are now like uh getting more more like like that LinkedIn is also you know one to one connection if you need to build Network you need to make a genuine connection and and people are genuinely like like now commenting their own thoughts rather than like what what AI is just printing it out but yeah I mean use AI to your uh help uh but don't just like Let It uh overshadow you or your content absolutely yeah um what are some projects at meta that you've enjoyed working on the most so from again from an outsider I know meta is just you know

an outsider I know meta is just you know such a huge huge company they have so many things but I've always been curious about exactly what do people work on so can you give us any examples of stuff that you've enjoyed but so I've been with the same AR since last three years it's called youth AR uh so we develop product for uh people targeting 13 to 18 uh right wow or if you are VR user if you are Oculus user uh from under 13 as well so like not for adults we we we build product for teenagers like you know there's a there's a lot of things teenagers go through when you they're using social media a lot of scrutinies on the company about mental well-being and all those kind of things uh for for

and all those kind of things uh for for like teenagers especially uh so we build products right uh there's a there's a product called family center uh in meta right uh which like I've been on the founding team of that product uh like when I joined we were like 10 Engineers now we are 60 plus Engineers uh right which and we are like dealing with a lot of things Family Center then some regulations in different states right like a teen should not be able to do it or if they're able to create the account like you know they should be having consent from their parent and all those kind of things parent should be able to put time limits to the team's account and like it it is across all the meta

and like it it is across all the meta apps so i' I worked on code bases of like Facebook Instagram messenger Oculus right like almost all the apps I've written code for so we are a central team uh which like spans across all products and and we mostly target products and features which are related to teenagers using meta products that is amazing yeah like under 13 if it's not allowed uh they they're not just like you know using these kind of things and that's so so interesting to me um really just last question here before I let you go what are some things if at all that you've ever faced um challenges from because of the fact that um you know you're you're Indian or you're from India has that ever happened or has that been in any way has that impeded your

been in any way has that impeded your you know productivity or experience at any company ever you know is that thing uh I don't think so uh like it has it has really uh kind of impacted me at any way uh it's uh yeah I I I mean like probably probably not at the workplace at least uh like yeah anything El I could I mean I think the the fun part is like every anywhere you go there just like lot of Indians in your team or in your office so so it it doesn't actually feels like the like like your your two minority I think in Tech specifically or or even like I live in Bay Area it's

or even like I live in Bay Area it's just like it it sometimes it just feels like uh India it's true yeah my brother lives in the East Bay and whenever I'm there he used to live in Fremont before and there it's just you know what I'm it's just crazy yeah you definitely don't feel like an outsider at all um closing words what advice do you have for any current Master student that wants to be a software engineer maybe keep specifically keeping in mind the current market conditions yeah uh I get a lot of questions as well and I think like only thing I can say is like first of all the market is not perfect so so don't take it on yourself uh I think the only thing uh we can do is just just keep applying

uh we can do is just just keep applying keep grinding uh ping recruiters get referals uh apply online make it a daily task to apply to at least 20 25 companies right uh and when you're applying make sure you are already ready for interviews right uh practice lead code on the site uh system design prepare your resume projects everything uh but yeah I mean it's more difficult to get an interview call uh these days so so you don't want to like miss any chance uh for for an interview so yeah just just Supply more grind more be ready for interviews um and and yeah just just hope for the best I I even I remember like I think in 2016 when the market was pretty decent I applied to more than 200 companies uh I got calls from like 10 companies uh then I

from like 10 companies uh then I got on site for like three four companies and then I converted like one or two so it's like one or two out of 200 companies you'll apply for so you'll you'll face like 10x more rejection than uh an interview call and like 50x more rejection than an offer so just just don't don't take it to your heart like everyone is going through the same thing uh and and yeah just just just give your best appear daily apply daily uh practice lead code daily uh and and and yeah just hope for the best and and eventually FR your time will come I have always had you know just a lot of deep respect for you know software developers I don't quite know

software developers I don't quite know where it comes from it's just a thing that I've always had and it's really conversations like these that really make me go back to that feeling of you know really just respect I I just truly feel it's one of the more difficult jobs that exist in our times the ability to tackle these challenges on a daily basis and just you know making a career out of it I think is really cool and it's it's just been such a great experience to learn from your such a vast field of experience with all of the various companies that you've been at and um the community actually that you've inculcated on LinkedIn as well as now with your newsletter so it's been an absolute pleasure heon thank you so so

absolute pleasure heon thank you so so much for taking the time yeah uh really appreciate apprciate it and hopefully it reaches like you know people uh like who who found it uh helpful as well uh but yeah really appreciate it and thanks for inviting me that brings us to the end of episode 28 of the ready said do podcast thank you all for sharing these conversations with those that continue to benefit from them if you would like to support me the easiest way to do that is by subscribing to my YouTube channel and or leaving me up to a f star rating on Spotify catch you all in the next one new episodes everyone