How To Hire as a Tech Recruiter (& Get Hired as a Student) - w/ Kati

tailoring your resume when you're building your resume thinking about a human being reading it first and foremost versus I've seen some students try to tailor their resume just for the ATS and then it's like well what about a human reading it trying to uh make those connections talk to them if possible um and you're going to learn so much from those conversations gain so much value and then down the line if positions open up you can you know then have an really easy basic copy the job description word for word make like the font size5 or something put it in white color and then just leave it on your resume at some point it's a way to hack the ATS did did you ever see that reviewing RS for TPM

you ever see that reviewing RS for TPM positions for a little while technical program manager positions and the verbs were really important so we would find you could have the job title of for example software developer that's not a TPM but and so your verbs would be things like developed you know software maned yeah well if you if your verbs were managed or LED um or oversaw then you could be a TPM Welcome to The Ready Set do podcast where we learn from journeys of not experts who are just two steps ahead of us I'm Nam Pand and joining me in this episode is Katie Hudson Katie is currently a career adviser at the Prue un University Engineering Management Department she has extensive experience as a recruiter having worked at three of the five Fang companies recruiting

the five Fang companies recruiting across various levels at Google Amazon and meta in the first section of this episode we focus on the numerous invaluable insights that Katy picked up during her career as a recruiter she provides insight into her tenure at Big Tech and how she began her career in recruitment as a part of Google's resum review team we discuss what makes a resume stand up out the three criteria for Success at Google positions which are generalizable to most tech positions and the degree to which incorporating online courses or certifications on one's resume sets one apart we then dispel some notoriously prevalent myths around the job application process and ATS or applicant tracking systems admittedly I've definitely Fallen prey to one or more of these so I think this

to one or more of these so I think this section is especially helpful for anybody that's currently applying or is going to in the near future we cover the best ways to write resume bullets for your professional experience and close out the section by going over the contrasts between recruiting for early career positions versus the more senior level individual contributor Tech lead type of positions across Amazon and meta in section two Katy shares her motivations for the career pivot that brought her back to higher education after her time with big Tech citing her drive to leverage her experiences to continue to make a meaningful impact through her work as the primary reason I've always wondered if there are certain traits common across students that get hired for the dream positions

that get hired for the dream positions and indeed we discuss what some of them are and how anyone can build those muscles we also discussed some common pitfalls that prevent students from getting interview call backs and converting interviews on the vital topic of networking Katy shares her Philosophy for networking effectively and suggests a blueprint that anyone can follow for success finally I asked ktie a question requested by you all my listeners pertaining to Indian International students in the US and I believe everyone listening will benefit from that perspective this discussion is for anyone who's ever wondered what the hiring process looks like from the other side of the table and how the insights shared by Katy can be leverag for your own success in the getting hired process in keeping with our theme of learning

in keeping with our theme of learning from somebody that's just two steps ahead instead of an expert I'd like to emphasize that this discussion centers on Katy and her experience in big Tech and higher education as is often the case with the job application process in general there are in fact multiple routes to get hired my goal is to merely disseminate some of the exceptional insights around hiring that KT shares with all the students that she works with and helps get hired so without any further Ado my conversation with ktie welcome thanks for having me I'm so excited to dive into all of the wonderful stuff we're going to cover here today so I think a good place to kick off would be do you mind providing a quick outline of your experience as a

a quick outline of your experience as a recruiter just to serve as context for all the insights and tips that you'll be serving up later here in just a few seconds yes absolutely so um I first started my recruiting career right out of college I graduated from Purdue University um and I went to uh Aerotech which is agency recruiting was there for three three years or so um and then I got recruited over to Google um so I worked at Google for a year um on the online channels team which is basically the resume review specialist for the online applications really really interesting work um got to do some really cool projects there um that was a contract position so while I was there I um ended up getting recruited over to Amazon to work as a full cycle recruiter

Amazon to work as a full cycle recruiter in their Austin office um and it was a really great opportunity um to help with building out the Austin office as well I was one of the first 100 employees there in Austin which I just visited uh last week they now have 13,000 employees so oh wow pretty crazy growth that they've gone through since I started um and I was working on recruiting software Engineers for the Amazon Fulfillment technology team and then I was recruited over to uh meta which was Facebook at the time I worked on the data center our recruiting team for the first year or maybe year and a half or so and then moved over to uh production engineering which is basically software Engineers uh

which is basically software Engineers uh recruited on the executive level individual contributor positions um so some very challenging high level roles to fill but really interesting work that I was able to do there um and then at that time I ended up moving kind of wanting a little bit of shift from the big Tech and um Shi Ed into a startup so a company that had about 100 employees total a little bit less than 100 employees total um and worked as a recruiter uh one of just I think there were three of us at the time so a very small team compared to what I was used to of thousands and thousands of recruiters within the company um and worked there for a few months before uh my current position which uh was another

my current position which uh was another huge career pivot into high education now working as a senior career adviser um for Purdue University so back to uh you know where I went for my undergrad Back Home in LaFayette so uh been a really interesting Journey um and overall throughout that time it's been over 12 years so a very long uh amount of time in the recruiting world you know it really sounds like you were kind of going on a a Fang CR CW almost I guess the only companies that would be left out so far and I'm sure you could always go back to uh circle out all of them is Apple and Netflix at this point so that's just incredible that you've

that's just incredible that you've covered 60% of um Fang already in in in your career as a recruiter absolutely incredible I guess my first question around that is what is it like to work in big Tech you know and you've had so many different flavors of big Tech already so can you give us were there any um recording p patters that you saw that were common across all of them or yeah any notable insights when you look back in retrospect in your time at Big Deck I mean it's it's awesome they're really really good companies to work for especially during the times that I was working for them you know I've heard some like rumors and things of some culture changes here recently within the last year or so but at at that time I

last year or so but at at that time I mean it was just amazing so so many amazing uh workplace cultures the be the really the best part of working for those companies is the people that you get to work with um and just the access that you have to all of these really really cool resources um the things that these companies are able to provide back to their employees like just the trainings and the opportunities and even nonwork related things like concerts and outings and just really really cool things they would bring into the office like we had I remember I was looking back at some of my posts from when I first started at Google and they brought in uh like farmers markets in the office that we could just go to and shop for free uh

could just go to and shop for free uh you could just go pick up whatever you wanted W they would do like um they would bring in minor celebrities and do like q&as and they would have lipsync Battles Through the office so just really really cool fun things outside of you know all of the awesome resources we had for work too but I mean in general you're getting to work with some super talented uh very successful people um that are you're surrounding yourself with so it's really really cool to get to be immersed in that type of culture amazing um on the topic of Google I I want to drill down a little bit around your experience on their resume review team I think is what you mentioned is what you were doing there so what can you tell us about you know

so what can you tell us about you know what goes into a good resume or a solid res one that one that gets shortlisted not just from ATS systems but then also um recruiters such as yourself and actually also on the topic of ATS systems I think it's just viewed as such a black box almost it sounds like nobody really knows how they work what goes on there's some chatter around how if you don't format it correctly ATF systems will not even parse in your content so yeah what can you tell us about uh what goes into a good resume yeah yeah I mean I think that applying in general just the application process feels like a a black hole that's true yeah so and I think that's a really challenging part

think that's a really challenging part of being on the job search is just not getting any type of feedback any type of you know two-way communication or any at least anything meaningful and honestly I don't think it's as related to the ATS as a lot of people uh you know I think that's kind of an easy culprit to blame to kind of sense of just why it's such a you know black hole because in all of my entire experience everything was reviewed by people it's very very much manual there are some ways to to filter applications and things which I can talk about that too um but very much there's people that are working on reviewing these applications to the highest extent

these applications to the highest extent that is possible obviously it's possible to review every single application that comes through especially now the volume I think is even higher than 10 years ago um but but yes when I was at Google so I was on the resume review team so it's exactly what it sounds it's an entire team we had about uh 10 people on my team and then there were another 10 or so that were based out of California and then 10 or so that were focused just on the University um recruiting positions overall about 30 people or so that were reviewing just assigned to reviewing um candidates who applied to positions online and our goal was to get online

online and our goal was to get online applicants hired we wanted people who applied online we wanted to increase the number of applicants that were getting hired so we were reviewing you know as as thoroughly as we could and trying to uh not only see if they were a fit for say yes or no if they were a fit for the position they applied to but if we knew of another position we could share them out to that was you know highly encouraged and uh you know what we were trying to do as well so uh very much a high priority for all of the companies that I worked for was hiring online applications because those are people that are seeking you out and applying and wanting to work for you they're showing you that they're available

showing you that they're available interested ready right now um you know timing is a big issue when it comes to recruiting of finding the right timing for these candidates so if you can find candidates that are coming to you then you want to capitalize on those and hire them um so that's what my team was responsible for um and there there was a lot that would go into the review process so we would meet pretty um we would meet with our H with the hiring managers and the recruiters that were working on those positions to get a good idea of what uh what makes a good candidate for this position so there's a lot that goes on beyond the job description um interesting fortunate for the for the candidates on the other end

the for the candidates on the other end because that's your only window or portal that you have into um you know the hiring process is that job description but there's so much beyond that so sometimes that's where the black hole can feeling can come from is you feel like you're a perfect fit uh for this position that you're applying to but unfortunately there was something else kind of unspoken that they're looking for that has nothing to do with you as a candidate or you know they are not saying you're not a fit for what's written there but for whatever reason they're just looking for something specific something that they're you know needing for their their team or this position specifically um so we'd have to learn all of that um and uh we would

learn all of that um and uh we would look at you know the the past hires for these positions what makes a successful candidate for these specific positions and you take all of that into account in in addition to the job description that's posted um in reviewing these resumés we would look at things um we would definitely look at the com past companies that they had worked was huge um job titles is their job title alignment and job duties of course so those were kind of those are kind of the top three things that you use to determine is this person a fit are they qualified um and it doesn't necessarily have to be exact you know uh we're we're

have to be exact you know uh we're we're doing this we're pretty skilled in the work that we're doing especially if you're working ately then you you know you're usually have a a high level of skill in this type of work so you're able to understand some of those transferable skills some of those transferable job titles um looking a little bit beyond just just what's you know maybe written on the page and make some uh kind of assumptions of whether this person could be a good candidate um the other thing that we would look for is uh indicators of past success indicators that candidate could be was a high performer in the past because that's what we want to hire is the high perform performers so there are there indications of success in this profile and that looks

success in this profile and that looks differently at different levels um and for different types of roles can you just shed some light on what that might look like from say an early careers perspective so maybe somebody that just has let's say one or two years of experience what are some Telltale indicators of that this resume or the person behind this resume is in fact a high high performer yeah I I mean at the student level it's definitely uh like extracurriculars where are they spending their projects maybe projects yeah um competitions uh are they if they are in extracurricular are they um you know growing to a level of of leadership are they at high performer in that extracurricular in whatever way um they can show that you should if you are a high performer you should have ways that

high performer you should have ways that you can kind of show that you've been nominated for something maybe um or been chosen to join some more Elite project group possibly um or yeah whatever that may be um and that can happen in that's probably a little bit harder to show in those like first couple of years out of absolutely out of Education because you are a little bit more limited in uh you know those those opportunities so I would would say still what are you doing with your free time during that so are you still involved in any other YP of extracurriculars even volunteering work um or these organizations like it's really you there is a lot of possibility to be involved organizations like swe for example and Grace Hopper want people

for example and Grace Hopper want people like they survive off of volunteers and people getting involved and um you know are you going to speak at these even if it's like a Regional Conference or something are you doing any of that type of extra thing with your spare time and that's really hard to do like not to say that's easy not everyone has that um it's not possible for everyone either um you know and we we would understand that but those are those are indicators absolutely would you say certifications or online courses say somebody's finished a corsera specialization certificate on say software project management or something are those something or things that count in favor of a a certain person or not really um from from the resume review

really um from from the resume review standpoint it was never something that I uh really took into consideration I would say so the thing the answer is it depends on the how much effort um how difficult are those certifications to obtain if just anyone can kind of go out and do it or any other person at your level in your industry if it's pretty easy for you to go out and get that then that's probably not that it's bad to have it's good to have but it's not going to be an indic of exceptional success interesting but if you are I mean there's ways to turn that around like if you maybe have done an extremely high number of these uh or maybe high

high number of these uh or maybe high visibility such as a capm or maybe a a certificate from the PMI which is very renowned very very well known would that help more got absolutely some of those sometimes those types of things are going to be a baseline even oh wow of you need to have some type of these one of these certifications yeah so those are absolutely different um but so yeah the level of effort the level of um difficulty and time and effort and energy and all that that it takes to get these types of things um is are going to be those indicators that we would look for um in the initial resume review very cool um I want to call out that I mean

cool um I want to call out that I mean maybe even unknowingly you've already busted so many myths that I had at least and I suspect a few of our listeners would likely have um some of them being that um the ATS system is probably not as widely used as one may have thought like there are actually humanized reading your resume and it's easy as you said to put it you know put the blame on the ATS system but that's likely not what's happening and why I like that is I think it gives more owners on the person to really do a good job with their resume and not just be like oh what's the point of my effort anyway it's going to you know go through a bot yeah absolutely I think that's a really

yeah absolutely I think that's a really good call out yeah in that it is in fact in our hands as appliers to you know do a good job at the resume the second you said was um like these companies really want to maximize online hiring which is also something that I've heard mixed thoughts or opinions around that oh if I don't know somebody or if I don't have a referal I have no chance of getting in which it sounds like those probably help for sure but they're not in any way a deal breaker I think is what you were laying out and the final one being that the job description is not in fact the you know tell all be all of applications

you know tell all be all of applications it's okay to even if you have parallel experience it's still fine to you know still apply maybe just test your luck tailor your resume probably to the extent possible so first of all I guess any call outs on those takeaways or would would you think those Stand Out fairly or okay I I agree definitely I think that um especially t toring your resume when you're building your resume thinking about a human being reading it first and foremost versus I've seen some students try to tailor their resume just for the ATS and then it's like well what about a human reading it and that's a little bit different kind of thought and you can have both I kind of alluded to this in the beginning but there are ways

this in the beginning but there are ways that we recruiters use to pull rums to the top um so they are if we are if there is a huge number of applications then there's got to be some way to try to filter those out so that's where the key words and things are going to come into play so there so the thought process of the I think the thought process of the ATS is kind of along the same lines of this keyword keyword searching type of thing but it's still a human that's doing it and they're going to be and there's so much complexity that goes into how we are putting together that search string um that it's really hard to try to kind of you know game that system or what however you

game that system or what however you want to kind of say it um yeah yeah yeah absolutely so love um love all those Scholars I feel like all of those are so actionable so helpful for um you know anybody that will be listening not to beat that dead horse more like just to close the loop on resumes how important are gpas the unequivocal um opinion that I've heard is that they don't matter as long as there more than like three is that true or does it play A Part what's the inside scoop on that okay okay yeah it depends on who is on the other end that's the answer to everything honestly is everyone who's reviewing is going to come with their own opinions and

come with their own opinions and thoughts and feelings on things so you're not there's no way to appeal to everyone um but as far as GPA I would say in the wide majority of the answer is that they don't matter as much again as long as they're you know above the minimum usually most companies will have some minimum GPA that they're looking for outside of that they're not necessarily going to take too much consideration on it but if if you are for new grad hiring um an intern hiring University hiring I guess um it is going to be a little bit more important because that's one of the only indicators that they may have to kind of determine your level potential for success so they are going to use that a little bit rely on that a little bit

little bit rely on that a little bit more and they could use that to choose between you know similar candidates if they're looking at just the resume once you get into like the interview process then there's way more they have way more um different factors that they can take into consideration they're not going to rely on just the GPA once they've met you and interviewed you um but yeah for that initial resume review it could come into play outside of University like I never looked when I was hiring I was never looked when I was hiring for um more of the experience level I never looked at a GPA B enough yeah I think that I think GPA B enough yeah I think that that tracks and then the penultimate question that I had was so are you personally you know a promoter and somebody that I guess supports just

and somebody that I guess supports just using power verbs to start each uh like each of your resume bullets for at least for professional expedience yes absolutely and I would say the verbs matter and the first really just those first couple of words in your bullet point are extremely important okay um so I should be able to when I do a skim of your bullet points that are explaining your work experience for a position even if I just read like the first half of the sentence then that's going to kind of give me an idea of of what you do and those verbs really tell the story so when I was a resume

tell the story so when I was a resume review at Google that was one of the big things so when I was I was reviewing rums for TPM positions for a little while technical program manager positions and the verbs were really important so we would find you could have the job title of for example software developer that's not a TPM but and so your verbs would be things like developed you know software devel or yeah well if you if your verbs were managed or LED um or oversaw then you could be a TPM if those are the verbs that you're choosing to highlight and start your sentences with but if you're choosing you know developed and created and reviewed and and things like that then you probably are a you know software developer you're spending your

software developer you're spending your time actually writing the code um instead of you know managing the projects so yeah there's the same job title we would it's we wouldn't just stop at the job title we would look at what are those verbs and that's what's going to tell the story of what this person actually does or at least give us a better idea and ultimately you know that's when you decide to to dig in a little bit more and take the entire resume a little bit more holistic approach in deciding whether to move forward amazing so yeah my biggest takea away from that is first two words on each bullet everything do the absolute best job that you can for curating those first few words at least for each of your bullet points it's it's funny not

your bullet points it's it's funny not to hopefully this is not too much of a tangent but my resume was shortlisted for the Google TPM position back in 2022 I believe and I cleared the first HR round which is fairly straightforward I couldn't clear the first you know like technical round yeah I had a blast doing it like I was asked I always remember that question I was asked um how would you explain sequels like primary key like the concept of a primary key to a 5-year-old yeah and and it's such a great question and I did my best I guess but yeah probably story for another time um for anybody listening I'll be linking my resume at the time that I used that

my resume at the time that I used that clearly you know was good enough to at least get me an interview in the show note caption so that you guys can take a look if you need and then my final final question is around uh a pretty widely known hack actually around resume I've heard a lot of different groups of people share that if you basically copy the job description word for word make like the font size 0.5 or something put it in white color and then just leave it on your resume at some point it's a way to hack the ATS did did you ever see that like does that even work I have so

that like does that even work I have so many questions around that I would say absolutely do not do that okay um whether I saw it I don't know okay because I probably wouldn't it's hidden right um but but would the ETS say it though because the ETS is just parsing every word or does it not see it in fact is that what you're saying so ATS does do parsing it's not always perfect and I'm not sure how it would parse that like interesting at the end I'm not sure what it would do with that information it's most just parsing like job title dates oh okay that type of stuff but I I've been I've heard of this uh before from some students so I have put some

from some students so I have put some thought into this I hadn't heard of it before I talked you know started this role I never heard of this when I was actually a recruiter but there were I did when I heard about this I kind of reflected on if I had ever come across this and I was like well you know there were times when I would search like keywords and some resumés would come up and I'm like this this keyword is not in this resume like why is this resume coming up there's something wrong with my searching like this is not I don't understand so I like wonder if maybe they had that keyword hidden in there somehow but yeah it's not it didn't trick me I didn't move forward with

trick me I didn't move forward with those andh the other thing is it can actually cause those resumés to be marked as spam so I LinkedIn specifically calls this out that if you have too many keywords they have they'll flag your your LinkedIn as being spam um so I'm sure that there's other ats's that will do the same thing they've kind of figured out stuff like this and they'll Mark us spam so you're potentially risking getting your resume thrown out altogether if you are doing some of those types of things wow that's yeah thank you so much for dispelling that myth because yeah I feel like that's unfortunately way too common is all I'll say on that subject so shifting gears little bit really appreciate that amazing deep dive around you know the whole resume review process so many valuable insights from that yeah

valuable insights from that yeah shifting airs a little bit um how does the game change a little bit when you're going to more senior positions I don't want to delve too much on this because it's kind of outside of my wheelhouse personally but I've just been curious about this like does the process change drastically like in terms of your professional experience or like yeah so just can you shed some light around what changes come about when you go move away from early careers to you know as you said at Amazon I believe you said oh sorry at meta or Facebook at the time you said you were um hiring for more senior individual contributor position so what's that like yeah yeah I I Amazon I was as well so at Amazon I was hiring

I was as well so at Amazon I was hiring um senior level software Engineers um but not the executive level so they were just senior level um so usually more like the kind of tech lead equivalent level um but still individual contributors and then at uh Facebook I moved into the executive level individual contributors so essentially director level um but still individual contributors um I mean at that level what we're looking for is people who are uh influencing the industry actually you know driving things forward in the industry making some uh really impactful um you know act taking impactful actions in various ways whether that's within their company or outside so when we talk about those kind of indicators for Success when you're talking at the student level things like um excelling in your extracurriculars there's

in your extracurriculars there's definitely parallels it's just going to be at a much larger scale you know being things like presenting at conferences are you the person that's chosen to present at some of these prestigious conferen es um the types of Publications that you have um and you know again sometimes that's not possible so the there's also the inside of the company just what are what is the scale and the scope of the work that you're that you're doing you know like at are you are you in charge of an entire product you know kind of moving forward so it's just the scale and the scope is going to to broaden yeah say very cool and then sounds like from there you made a couple pivots so I'm more interested in the second of those pivot so what was

in the second of those pivot so what was it about um you know coming back to higher education that appealed to you at that point in your career I'm sure there were multiple factors but I think it's really remarkable that you did that obviously you know as you said coming from that environment where there's just so much fun so many things to do and obviously the impactful nature of your job itself which is you know essentially it's making somebody's life is the way I look at it at least like if I were responsible for somebody getting hired to metup I would sleep every night feeling really good about um myself so just kind of curious as to what caused the pivot if if you can share any details on that yeah definitely um that's interesting perspective and

that's interesting perspective and that's what I really drew me to recruiting in the first place was the ability to change people's lives and make this you know huge imp impact and being able to bring people into better situations and things like that and then getting into recruiting you know continued moving up to more challenging positions and obviously moved up to even the executive level at that point we're really here it the impact that I was making actually did feel like it was it was impactful to the company I was bringing in some able we were bringing in some extremely talented individuals to make some huge moves within the company but I was they're they're already in an extremely good situation so they're going from one yeah really um cool situation and projects that they're working on to some new really cool

working on to some new really cool interesting projects so I definitely wasn't feeling that um impact towards the end of my recruiting career that I was kind enjoyed throughout more of the early parts and you know even up until till then so I would say that is one of the reasons I enjoy the work that I'm doing now is that it is really rewarding that was going to be my answer was that it's rewarding but U recruiting is rewarding too you know just sometimes depending on the role can be more rewarding than others but yeah I really I enjoy working with with the students the one-on-one interactions that I get to have sharing back some of the the knowledge and things that I've learned throughout my career being able to you know bring all of that I'm making a career pivot but

of that I'm making a career pivot but it's still all of my past experiences what's able to absolutely yeah drive that that um success in this position so uh yeah it's been a really interesting and I I mean I'm always the type of person to be kind of seeking out change and Challenge and learning something new and you know moving teams obviously I've moved companies a few times and I I don't really like to get settled down too much I like the The Challenge and the change that's been really really cool of being able to jump into something entirely new and uh figure it all out again as a firm believer in change is the only constant I can actually relate to what you're laying out there I like to you know shake things up just a little bit um every few

things up just a little bit um every few years or so at least whenever I can but yeah I really appreciate the rawness and honesty in your answer where yeah like it makes perfect sense to me why you would want to uh not do what you were doing with recruiting and you know be just do something that's way more impactful so for yeah I want to um again shift gears a little bit and talk about your experience at Purdue especially working with students so I guess my first and pardon me if this is too broad or overarching but um this is how we kind of began our discussion around recruitment as well but what are some traits that you see um and these can be

traits that you see um and these can be not just like resume trades but even really just personality trads just you know on a very overview level but tra that you've seen students that do manage in fact to get hired for roles of their choice yeah um I would say the some of the things that I've traits that I've seen um that are the biggest indicators of success are just the people that are willing to willing to seek feedback and grow from that feedback kind of what they you know able to take that feedback and grow from it and the job search right now is extremely challenging um and so be people that are able to push through that challenge and kind of continue even though it's hard um they're going to come out successful for sure yeah so I would say yeah those are the main traits

would say yeah those are the main traits uh just and it it's those are not the traits that people think are the indicators yeah I was just gonna say that's so true yeah for the students and it go it goes against what I said about the resume uh because you know people the students come in and think they have to work on these highlevel projects these and um they have to do this all of these challenging things they set really high goals for themselves basically and they have to work in the best internships um and they have to you know get the internships right away and all of those things are definitely going to be indicators for Success those are great for building your resume um but

great for building your resume um but also you the there's more than no resume you know you're not just your resume you're a a person that also has to to go out in the world and do this challenging job search so we have people who are just as successful who you know face some challenges early on and are able to kind of push through those seek feedback learn from that feedback and do the things that they need to do in order to become a better better candidate all around um and then they end up being some of the most successful in the end so sometimes the the people who are who get those uh you know resume on paper successes early on um are obviously successful in that way yeah also the people who have to go through a little

people who have to go through a little bit of that challenge and if they're able to grow from it then they're going to be just as successful if not more successful um than than the first did that make sense no absolutely I mean you just got me reminiscing a little bit because so when I was first in the internship Market in 2020 um what had happened was obviously it was a really challenging time probably not as challenging as it is currently which is funny that I have to say that but it was still pretty bad like there weren't really a lot of companies hiring what ended up happening for me was I got um an internship at this company called MHS uh Material Handling Systems which actually doesn't even exist anymore cuz I think it was they were bought by like

I think it was they were bought by like a bigger company called fortna but at at the time it I remember like it was the only offer I got and I was like yes I'm going to take this and I'm going to do the best job that I can because this is all I have this is all I because this is all I have to work with I tried to you know I tried at all the Teslas all the apples of the world they have such big internship programs somehow I was maybe for various reasons not good enough to or actually to your point maybe my resume wasn't good enough to get short listed I had nothing to do with with absolutely and as you said like a person is not their resume and I know that can

is not their resume and I know that can be a difficult distinction to make a lot of time especially when you're in the market itself but as it turns out my current role at kushman and Wakefield where I'm a senior transformation analyst is like I would not have this position if it wasn't for that internship because yeah what I was doing there was my first exposure to transformation especially in like you know a business corporate environment where and in an industry which you know where that lags behind in terms of tech which is a lot of what I do currently and if it wasn't for that very specific experience I would not be employed where I am currently and this is the best job I've ever had it's just I love going into work every day and doing the work

into work every day and doing the work that I do but um apologies for that tangent but to jump back a little bit into things um what are some pitfalls that you've seen that usually prevent students from getting interviews and then maybe we can also uh go over some pitfalls that prevent students from converting interviews I think those are two distinct things so in my head it made to break that up so any thoughts on that yeah yeah I think with just the application stage obviously there's volume is important um so you do need to be you know um you have to be applying or you're not going to get any any responses and you have to be applying at a pretty high volume um but also there's

a pretty high volume um but also there's some balance there so that's the kind of second point is having somewhat of a focus um of understanding what you're going after so it can be really exhausting to try to chase down every if you it's good to have to cast a wide NB it's good to have an open mind but it you know like I said it's going to be very exhausting if you're trying to go after every single yeah possibility at the same Full Speed Ahead type of yeah mentality so um that's just not feasible um so being able to kind of Target that a little bit more and understand what your end goal is um and not only what

your end goal is um and not only what your end goal is but where are you going to be the most successful where are you finding success um and getting the more of that return on investment and going after that a little bit being a little bit more focused and targeted and that can come from uh that also means where are you what is your more natural job search strategy and style so for some people they see a lot more success in on online applications probably those people that have a little bit more of the onp paper uh resume success other people see a lot more success in job fairs and that's where they get all of their opportunities whereas some people have no success from job fairs some people have a ton of success from networking some people have no success

networking some people have no success from networking um so figuring out what is your natural where are you naturally getting more of that return and focusing a little bit more on that um but I would say all three of those also are important to to keep in mind so that I mentioned um networking too uh which we can talk a little bit more about that um in detail that's like a whole other subject yeah But continuing so putting in the effort the applications or networking or in-person career fars whatever that means to you putting in a lot of that effort and targeted effort I think is where you're going to see a little bit more of that um that success of of getting some interviews that's

of of getting some interviews that's such an interesting perspective because um this is the first time I'm actually hearing about how you can in fact have a uh you know application style and it makes so much sense what you're laying out because a lot of times people I think try to shoehorn themselves as you know like I dread this I don't like reaching out to people via cool DMS but they'll have to do that anyway and a lot of times because of that they come across as inauthentic or you know it doesn't work and then they're like oh no like I'm probably doing something wrong which is just not true to your point maybe they're just better off you know know as you said casting a wider net and

know as you said casting a wider net and on that same topic past guests on this podcast have shared um essentially that so a lot of people just based off their experience can find themselves in niches essentially so one of the guests who was hired as a program manager at Amazon her entire experience revolved around uh the supply chain domain essentially so she she was like I was only laser focused on any and all jobs that revolved around supply chain because I knew that my resume could back me up there and it I had all the Firepower I needed another guest probably more in a similar boat such as mine which was that I have experiences just from all over there's no Niche at least from my resume and he

no Niche at least from my resume and he was like it just made sense to cast that really wide net and really I think my takeaway from combining all of those data points is that look at your resume and then look at your application style and between the two of them that is what should determine the way you go about doing things does that does that track Ry would you say yeah absolutely and I I definitely agree that understanding your Niche if you have one um is going to be your biggest area for Success obviously understanding if you have what is your what is it that stands out about you why should someone hire you specifically if

should someone hire you specifically if someone is looking at resumés what positions are they going to what positions are you uniquely qualified for those are where you should be spending more of your time um and so I tell students a lot of kind of along these lines when you are applying it's all about balance so yes you should be casting that wide net and you know you're never going to get a response from a position if you don't apply but at the same time understand it's it is still uh you know time consuming to apply so you shouldn't be just applying to everything um but understand where your kind of top what's your top 25% of those roles that you're applying to and maybe spending a little bit more effort on those applications so making sure you're tracking some of

making sure you're tracking some of those top applications and following up on those and finding people to reach out to and network for those top positions if you do that for everything you're going to burn yourself out immediately so you you don't need to you know track every single position but for those top positions that you're uniquely qualified for or that are the most of interest to you because that's also that's way to be uniquely qualified if you are more of a generalist profile then those positions that you have a natural um compelling interest in that is going to make you a stronger candidate than someone else so you are actually uniquely qualified they just need to talk to you and find out

just need to talk to you and find out find that out and they you know that will make you a stronger candidate absolutely and then on the topic of you know them talking to you um what are some pitfalls that you've observed in your time working with you know students that uh are maybe fairly easily correctable but a lot of students fall under those traps especially around interviewing interviewing specifically yeah I think the biggest thing for interviewing is interviewing is its own unique skill set yeah that's so true nobody is just a natural interviewer you can be the best whatever you are at your job and not be able to interview well for it so with that in mind you need to practice you need to prepare um you need to get used to the

prepare um you need to get used to the interview format um and you don't need to no one needs to be perfect at interviewing either like you know there is some there is a lot of Grace given for for that in that regard we when when we're interviewing candidates we expect them to be you know somewhat nervous and we understand that this is like a simulated situation this is isn't how things happen in real life so all of that is taken into account but you still need to show up and be able to present yourself in the best way possible and showcase your your skills and show them why they should hire you um so you need to practice um and prepare so those are just the biggest tips if you just

just the biggest tips if you just practice and prepare then you're going to be better than uh you know most of the people who aren't doing that yeah um and to add to that I think a tip that I was given that made me feel really good while interviewing was that keep in mind that the interviewer is nervous too I think that's that's so underrated and as soon as I heard that it was almost like a light when off in my head and I was like that's so true this is not something that this person is enjoying or like it's not like watching TV for them they also have to you know be presentable want um the the other person to want to work with them so it's not

to want to work with them so it's not like there's a like sure there's a power Dynamic there certainly but it's not like you know um the other person's just it's all a walk in the garden or something like that yeah and you they don't know what is GNA they're walking into an unknown situation too absolutely you know they don't know what questions you're going to ask or what answers you're going to give and they also have to make you know assessments and there's a lot of pressure on them to you know make the right decision and to get the right information that they need in order to make that decision so it is a you know High Press situation for them as well and yeah absolutely they are that's really good you know advice is you're interviewing the person that

you're interviewing the person that you're interviewing with is just another person like they're yeah so you know keep that's a good thing to keep in mind yeah awesome and then on the topic of networking what are some general tips that you can share so obviously some of the basic ones that I'm sure most people are aware of are um when you're reaching out be very direct but also polite and like don't just be like hey I want to learn from you because what does that mean you know like give give the other person a way to help you like help them help you essentially like reach out with links wherever you can don't be sending out requisition IDs because nobody's going to copy that and paste it into

going to copy that and paste it into their you know job portal to find out what job Etc so what I guess what are some of the Lesser known insights or tips that you can share about uh the field of networking maybe specifically on LinkedIn let's say yeah a couple of things I would say when you're reaching out so just the reach out in general is just be be genuine um and tell them why why are you reaching out to this person you want to come across as a real person too so what is it truly in this profile what is it that you saw that made you want to reach out and be honest and

want to reach out and be honest and transparent about that whatever that may be and that can go in so many different directions you know if you if you and if you don't know what that is um think about it when you see a profile and if you are try talking to just a friend and saying you know this is I wish I could talk to this person because they uh you know worked on this project or they were in this club or you know I'm trying to I really really want to talk to someone that works at this company and then tell that to that person you know tell them why you're reaching out specifically

why you're reaching out specifically whatever that may be awesome um the other thing is it's not just about getting referrals you know I think that people do have some success with reaching out and just asking for a referral I think there is some success that can come from that and obviously that's going to be more of that very that that instant reward instant gratification kind of um Outreach it's going to be more transactional though in you're reaching out getting a referral and then you're kind of moving along but as a especially especially as a student really in any at any point in your career you can make a case for this um but we encourage students to reach out just to build their Network to talk to interesting people to learn about different career paths learn about

different career paths learn about different companies um what it's like to work there what it what these people are actually doing in these careers that you're interested in getting into um and trying to uh make those connections talk to them if possible um and you're going to learn so much from those conversations gain so much value and then down the line if positions open up you can you know then have it really easy you've already opened that line of communication to be able to ask for a referral potentially or they may even you know offer to give a referral on the spot or if makes sense in that conversation you can also ask for a referral immediately but just reaching out in order to build that Network first and foremost versus just reaching out um to get a referral uh can has been really

to get a referral uh can has been really successful we've had some students who it's and it's not easy you are putting yourself out there and it is time consuming and there is a lot of work but what the reward that you can get out of it is just huge even if it's not a referral these conversations are extremely valuable and and this is someone that is now in your network for the rest of your career realistically I mean even though it sounds you know even though you're just having maybe one conversation with them uh and that sounds like just such a minor thing um it's more than the thousands of other people out there have had with this person you know I uh remember when I moved into uh when I do career pivots I

moved into uh when I do career pivots I reach out and talk to other people in the industry and I still consider those people my network um just from you know maybe one or two conversations so it is really a way to to build that Network even if there's not that instant word that might be coming from it I I love that call out ktie especially because it really sounds like um the way to go about it is not in terms of a transactional like here I I want this but more like I just you know exist and I think you're cool and I would like to be connected and learn from you potentially going forward and I think like the thing I like about that even more is that this isn't something that only necessarily needs to be done when

only necessarily needs to be done when you're in the job search somebody can do this from day one of their you know grad program there is nothing stopping somebody from you know making this a weekly exercise maybe even a daily exercise just have half an hour dedicated every day to just see what what's out there I personally have enjoyed doing this I've actually got to do this much more since I started the podcast which is kind of an interesting and you know very rewarding side effect of it that I hadn't considered before but I really really like that call out there because it's not a perspective I had considered yeah and it's really easy when you are a student you can lean into the fact that you are a student everyone in everyone out there has been in your

in everyone out there has been in your shoes at some point and understand what it's like understands what it's like to be a student um trying to just you know break into the market learn what it's like in these careers they're more than willing to to give back if they have the time and capacity to be able to do that um you know we recommend students reaching out just with messages of you know I'm a I just started as a student at XYZ University and I'm looking to build my network and learn about this specific career path and it's just a really easy way to lean into it the other thing is you mentioned it's not too early never too early to start it's

too early never too early to start it's also never too late yeah when students get into the like just into the middle of midst of that job search they start to really feel the pressure and feel like they need to have those transactional um you know exchanges more than anything else um because these the this other approach is a little bit more of a long-term approach potentially um but really it's it's never too late to start building those those long-term um really relationships and networks and they could they also can have immediate rewards and referrals to find immediate action from those um just from having good conversations with people so it's important to kind of slow down and um you know take a little bit more of that that approach versus uh getting too too

that approach versus uh getting too too caught up in the pressure that you're feeling in the job search that's so insightful amazing so really that those were all the questions that I had for you but however there were some questions that were requested by some of my listeners so because a big chunk of um I guess my listeners just starting out are in in fact Indian students um in America or you know Indian students International students that are doing various Master's courses I guess what is there any specific thing that you've noticed that um especially students from India can maybe do better because obviously and I'm sure you're aware but it's a very different um switch in terms of you know the corporate experience in India versus here so I guess what is some general tips around especially

some general tips around especially somebody that's coming uh to the US from India for their masters anything really there they can do to you know have a better experience or have a better chance getting hired it doesn't need to be limited to resume or job search but just really any general tips that you may have to share on that subject I mean I think the most important thing would be having a support system and yes a you know a network and some of these some of know a network and some of these just what we were just talking about of building the Professional Network can be useful in that regard but even more important I think in that case is actually having more close close and constant connections with other people

constant connections with other people who have gone through who are going through what you're going through or have recently gone through you know similar situations and you know can can give advice and understand you know your perspective and give a little bit different perspective if someone is just a even a year ahead of you and maybe someone that's two years ahead of you um to be able to show what can come from what you're going through so that's where I think think with our program we we have a really strong alumni connection um so we uh you know bring bring alumni back to try to to uh connect with and Mentor um we encourage those alumni connections and our purem alums are just extremely generous and giving anytime I've ever reached out to

giving anytime I've ever reached out to anyone they've been willing to give back and support and want to help in any way that they can it's a it's you know just an amazing resource be able to have of people who have been in your situation and can kind of give you advice from from what they from understanding that perspective and now having a new perspective of being beyond that um so I would rely on kind of that Network um Katie it's been such a such a pleasure interacting with you and um learning from all the amazing insights that you've accumulated over all the years and I also want to call out that um all of the students that you're helping are also I'm sure so so thankful

helping are also I'm sure so so thankful of all that you do and I guess finally I I appreciate all of the communications that you send out it makes me as an Alum feel still so connected to puru and I think a big part of that is the amazing Community really that you've helped curate and are currently helping curate around that so um really really appreciate you taking the time today it's been so great interacting with you of course well like I said our mem alms are amazing and love you know giving back and supporting our students so I'm happy to support you as an Alum as well so um you know any way that I can give

so um you know any way that I can give back and and help others you know help the students even more than than we do already but yes we have an amazing program that has been here long before I started as well so um yeah it's great and thanks for thanks for having me that brings us to the end of episode 9 of the ready said do podcast I'm certain that the knowhow shed by KD will benefit everyone that's currently looking for jobs or is at some point in the future going to do so so basically every person ever I want to call out that while our discussion is mostly centered around the tech domain some of the topics we cover such as resume tailoring networking pitfalls are in fact industry agnostic

pitfalls are in fact industry agnostic if you benefited from this discussion the easiest way to support me is by subscribing to my channel on YouTube and leaving me up to a fstar review on on Spotify as always I would like to thank you all for sharing these conversations with those that continue to benefit from them if you would like to get in touch please feel free to reach out to my Instagram @ ready. set.2 finally the quote for this week is if opportunity doesn't knock your door then build a door by Milton Burl catch you all in the next one new episodes every Wednesday