How To Teach Economics & Game Theory (Indian Institute Of Mgmt Ahmedabad Prof POV) - w/ Viswanath

what are some things that you find generally cat students by surprise when they first start their Journeys at am Ahmedabad at Northwestern is basically modeling competition right how do firms compete what is the process like to become a professor at an now that life has given me luck let me make the most of it if you had a magic wand that could change anything in the cat what would you change both the fish and an elephant need to know how to run first online what are some things that you think the IMs do really well when it comes to imparting a world class business education this generation attention spans are in seconds you got to connected with what they've seen in Instagram yesterday probably as a video clip and that's where the ability of the

clip and that's where the ability of the instructor lies I'm curious to hear your perspective on now things that IM am could be better at I have my corer course on Game Theory done in a very very very non-technical format I would love it if people check it out the patient goes through a lot of trauma so therefore you cannot tell me that it is a problem of doctors alone a psychiatrist and a psychologist psychotherapist has to be involved together in the treatment of an HIV patient so me this is what diversity brings to the table an American looks at an operations problem and says follow Sops an Indian looks at an operations problem and say what is the jugar in this welcome to the ready said do podcast where we discuss journeys of not experts who are just two steps ahead of us I'm Naman Panda and in this episode

us I'm Naman Panda and in this episode my guest is Professor vishwanath Bengali Professor vishwanath specializes in Game Theory and microeconomics at the most premier business school in India Indian Institute of manag management Ahmedabad We Begin our discussion by going over Professor vishan not's experiences of getting his PhD from Northwestern University where he had his first tint as a teacher from there we go over his journey to becoming a professor at IM Ahmedabad things that catch most students at im a by surprise things IMS do really well when it comes to education and thinks they could be better at future of business education in India and across the world and perhaps most importantly Professor incredible research work around Healthcare in India my goal with this

Healthcare in India my goal with this episode is that by the end of it you will have gotten a detailed insight into what it takes to impart education effectively at the best business school in India this is the ready said do podcast and to support it please subscribe to the channel and or leave me up to a fivestar rating on Spotify and now without any further Ado my dear friends here's professor vishwanath professor vishwanath welcome thank you nice to be here likewise so excited to delve into your experience with teaching that you have inculcated over all these years um I want to begin by what draws you to teaching what it is that made you realize that this is something you want to you know dedicate your entire career

to you know dedicate your entire career towards so it's a very I don't know when it happened but yeah I think it it goes back to my PhD days where in the US I had to do a t ship in order to earn my stien my my my my Sten right so therefore I figured out that as a teaching assistant I was quite good I me so much so that students have also you know reached out to me on their own uh later as well so therefore I thought that this might be something that will be a good career for me but at the same time I wanted to get into industry to understand how the industry works so therefore post my PhD I joined

therefore post my PhD I joined Consulting and I worked there for two years moved to India worked for a year during that time I happen to do teaching in a business school on a part-time basis uh that's when I discovered that I am you know I think I can hold my foot in a class and I'm quite decent at teaching so that's how I became a teacher you know in 20110 I think I made a full plunge back to Academia and 2012 is when I joined IM and um I think the challenge in the class the fact that you get to read a lot of stuff you get to read a lot of esotic stuff get to connect dots in the class and that you get pushed back and

class and that you get pushed back and then you go and read further to you know take that uh critique and then reframe it so that the students understand these are some of the things that drive me um towards teaching I love abolutely I love the classroom experience I mean maybe I I'm fortunate to be able to teach at IMA but before IMA I us to teach at ifmr and I would I loved that experience too um you know the idea that I could see some people understand what I want to convey is probably what gets me to gets me going in a class amazing and we'll be delving down into those specifics you know in just a little bit here that what

know in just a little bit here that what it is that you know makes finally a point click that you that you've been trying to convey and what are some of the better ways around doing that but um just want to take a step back and kind of focus on your experience at Northwestern which where I believe you got your PhD so I'm based out of Chicago so it's you know it's a small world in that way um but do do you mind talking through some of your experiences while getting your D what was it that you know what was your thesis focused on and um what kind of work you were doing while at at Northwestern so at Northwestern my

Northwestern so at Northwestern my thesis is basically modeling competition right how do firms compete that's my primary thesis topic is that game theory adjacent or it's like mostly econometrics and Game Theory combined together so that's what I specialized in data and Theory it took me six years to finish my PhD and uh that's what it is I think having been in Academia across the US and in India I was trying to see if you could maybe contrast for us what was your experience like in the US to be able to give you a contrast of students I may not be in a position simply because you know at Northwestern I was more an more a teaching assistant so therefore I was more about doubt clearing sessions

more about doubt clearing sessions grading I understood students from a different perspective where do it an i a I'm a full-fledged teacher right so therefore it's probably not a very good Apples to Apples comparison fair enough argue there I was looking at them from you know as not my students they are somebody whose doubts I have to clarify there's somebody for whom I need to hold tutorials there's somebody whose papers I need to grade here on the other hand I'm actually responsible for their learning So to that extent you know I mean and in us it's exclusively that I taught except brief fling with Kellog MBA students here and there in IMA on the other hand it's only MBA students and iach so therefore to contrast both these guys I think is not fair in my

these guys I think is not fair in my opinion so therefore I not sense from yeah that totally tracks so I guess with that shifting gears a little bit what is the process like to be uh to become a professor at you know an I am and maybe you can talk to your specific experience at I am Ahmedabad but I'm sure you might be familiar with you know other uh big or you know other Premier IMS in India how do how does one become a profess Market job market Works more or less the same across the world at IMA typically you send your CV which has a record of your entire employment as well as your more importantly publication record okay so the Institute looks at for example I

so the Institute looks at for example I applied in economics so Institute looks at economics faculty where is it the the Gap is available within the economics faculty and then looks at whether I can fill a part of that Gap or not and then they end up calling me for giving a talk and faculty interaction okay so the purpose of the talk is I present my latest research to them um and then there's a lot of you know back and forth research seminar full-fledged research seminar and then after the research seminar you also meet with every member of the economics group as well as people in economics but not necessarily a part of Economics group um I see and then a

of Economics group um I see and then a consensus is reached upon on whether this candidate is good bad ugly and then that's how offers are made uh at the end so therefore that's why I said research becomes a Cornerstone for every academic's life pretty much throughout the entire tenure so that's my journey in met a few faculty members I was inspired by work they do and I sent my email with my CV to the director and then one find day I heard why don't you come to this place and give a talk I did it seems they liked what I said and I liked my interaction and therefore they made an offer and I I appreciate that overview um kind of want to jump into you know

um kind of want to jump into you know your experiences at ahed Ahmedabad now for for the rest of kind of the section so and actually yeah before I do that just for a little bit of context um I my masters was in Engineering Management from per University so what that is is basically it's a like dual kind of dual combo course where half my credits came from engineering school and the other came from business school so I have very briefly been exposed to you know stuff like case based learning and we had some classes that excuse me um MBA and other people used to have to take and I also have a couple close friends from Ahmedabad with whom I used to interact and we used to kind of share notes

and we used to kind of share notes around how our experiences are similar but also very different at the same time so just trying to give you some context in for you know for the rest of this discussion where like where I'm coming from and where my experiences are based out so with that in mind um do you mind shining a light on what are some things that you find generally catch students by surprise when they first start their Journeys at am Ahmedabad yeah I kind of believe that the academic rigor that this place insists upon rightfully or wrongfully I don't want to comment on it but this place is academically very rigorous and I mean according to me rightfully right I'd agree yeah the the amount of uh academic pressure that the student gets

academic pressure that the student gets into in the first one month of their career at IMA that's something that many students are caught off guard as you progress further in your time at time my assessment again having talked to students is realization of the depth of activities or breadth of activities that this Place offers you that's the second Epiphany that hits many of them and slowly slowly they fall into their groove in an attempt to make most out of this particular place uh so to me the biggest surprise that many people have many people would have heard it's going to you know it's going heard it's going to you know push you to the limits and all that stuff but I think unless they experienced it they would have very

experienced it they would have very limited clue about what exactly this is many of us think that IMA is about academic Excellence it is but at the same time the place offers a lot of stuff um there's you know so many things that you could specialize in there are so many tradeoffs that you get to make so slowly but surely students start realizing that there is more to life and that's a second stage of the evolution on the campus and the third would be to understand where they want to go work how they want to go work what kind of role they're looking forward um in the 2- year MBA program maybe summer internship in the one- year MBA program career transitioning so this is how I think the these are the surprise elements at various stages for some the

elements at various stages for some the surprise would be an ego that gets shattered to Pieces maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was or some people are like I'm surprisingly better than I expected myself to be but somewhere in the middle is where the reality is and that Discovery to me is probably the biggest Journey um you may call it surprise if you want no absolutely I think that's such a great call out around what you said that you know what it does to you when you're surrounded by a peer group that you have just no way of expecting what that peer group might be like so honestly I can relate to some of what you're saying obviously I never went to an IM am but um my experiences

went to an IM am but um my experiences at you know during my first month at Purdue were very similar it's just you know classic imposter syndrome at least for me it was like how did I even get here you know I'm not not even half as smart as some of these people and you know just what am I going to do but again eventually reality kicks in and you just you know sh with you you can't gauge luck or anything I think imposter syndrome is pretty much real in every top place anywhere in the world every day you doubt yourself on what the hell am I doing here in the middle of all these guys and you somehow survive right I mean so therefore at some point in

I mean so therefore at some point in time you have to embrace the fact that you know now that life has given me luck let make the most of it I mean that's that's the spirit that I see I may teach most of so therefore including me where I come to the realization that hey damn it I'm lucky let's not waste away this fck fck amazing do you care to comment on the you know broad Strokes the selection criteria that we have for I am basically the cat is what I'm getting at if you had a magic wand that could change anything in the cat what would you change see listen in a country where I am am ABC the old ones offer you maybe 3,000 seeds and 1.5 lakh people want that I'm

seeds and 1.5 lakh people want that I'm not necessarily sure that you have a very different system I almost everyone of the ABC liik have evolved and I'd throw ISB into the mix as well somewhere in the top half itself theyve basically said that we don't necessarily believe that this is the only place where people need to enter even experienced folks can enter so that's how you know the idea of one year MBA started taking shape yeah in and therefore we are basically saying that cat may not be the right test for these guys it's GMAT right so therefore you know you have two kinds of selection processes one year MBA and the two-year MBA two-year MBA frankly 1.5 people wanted 1.5 lakh people want to do it 150,000 for what 3,000 seats um if you do the

do the calculation so therefore I don't know what you would do differently I mean if I had unlimited resources and time I would probably interview every one of them to figure out where they fit in and then take the ones who have the right kind of a you know mindset to get into got can be measurable right and in terms of the the way the test is designed itself so measuring you know um quantitative ability verbal and logical reasoning is there something you would change in that that aspect I'm just curious you know maybe not I mean I think if you look at standard tests like G and G these are the same tests these are the same skills that are measur therefore there must be something in these skills that are

something in these skills that are necessary for evaluating somebody I mean even for that matter even at an undergrad level SATs and all focus on many of these things as well so therefore there must be something in these skills which according to me are necessary how tough should it be how easy should it be oh well that's a question of yeah that's a separate for sure I'm not comment on that particular part um again as I said I think one has to keep into whatever answer I give one has to keep into perspective that the demand for these places is far higher than the supply so therefore at some level you'll have to say that some Guillotines are needed absolutely yeah yeah and totally I I wasn't necessarily looking for a comment on how tough it is

looking for a comment on how tough it is because again there's no way to there's no good way to segregate out as you said 1.5 L people you know business aptitude um or can we measure how moldable a person is these are some of the things that I would like to test but frankly no matter how much I thought about it doing at scale to me is impossible so therefore I'd rather do a standardized test which is same across everybody both the fish and an elephant need to know how to run fast online I don't have a choice it seems yeah I mean and a like that yeah in that race yeah just if one can do what it takes to you know grow legs

do what it takes to you know grow legs as a fish sure why not might as well attempt to do that Professor what is it but so therefore yeah you have not you're not measuring math skill alone you're not measuring data skill alone you're not measuring language skill alone you not measuring logic alone you're com you're doing a combination of these yeah so if it go in one maybe you make it up in others that's how I would look at it makes sense um Professor what is it that you teach uh like what's your primary course at aabad I teach this course called I mean I teach microeconomics which is the fundamental foundation and the other course in electives I teach this course called

electives I teach this course called Game Theory okay got it both of those sound like extremely important courses to me and again bear in mind I've never gone to B school but would you would you I mean at the cost of you're asking me a question on my livelihood so I would like to believe they're extremely important right so you you shouldn't be expecting any other answer than that that's that's fair I was hoping you could I mean compare to some other courses I'm trying to you know write there are there are few in in a management education there are perspective building courses right exactly and there are skill-based courses perspective building course would mean understand how the world

would mean understand how the world Works around you what motivates people you know economics why is budget important why is finance ministry important how is external Affairs Ministry important what is the role of philosophy in a human evolution what is the role of society in human evolution these are perspective building coures these are not some scores which you take and say okay tomorrow I'm going to the office I'm going to become better guy as a result of it and there are skill courses how do you manage finances how do you Market a product how do you build strategy for your how do you recruit and nurture Talent how do you understand teams how do you work in teams these are skill-based courses you do this tomorrow your work will CH your working pattern

your work will CH your working pattern will change yeah I actually think that microeconomics is really one of those perspective building courses not a skill course and Game Theory on the other hand is a mixture between skill and perspective building mostly towards perspective building less towards skill so therefore to me to me that's how I think about it I am one of those big picture teachers not the my share teacher I mean that's a way I don't know is it better than marketing is it better than strategy of course I'm not going to comment on it of course i' like to think it's pretty important that's where I leave it at makes sense um as somebody that's always you know been really

that's always you know been really interested in microeconomics but never got to finally learn it do you by chance have any recommendations for resources or books that one could pick up to you know get fairly dangerous at at microeconomics so at micro I mean I don't know uh there's a book I kind of refer to my student that's called as the undercover Economist got I had uploaded most of my class notes which I think I'm calling as Essentials of micro for a manager okay I see you know on my LinkedIn you should be able to hunt it down oh awesome I will def my entire class notes the synopsis of my entire class notes online that's so cool at one point so they on LinkedIn maybe you

point so they on LinkedIn maybe you should be able to get access to it without absolutely can I ask like how that came to happen that's so cool to me that you did that is that I do I do my course 15 session course of microeconomics I divide it into five modules of three sessions each after each module I have a habit of sending email to my students with bullet points of what we covered in the class and that poses a lot of questions to them where they that would encourage a discussion among the class over email and then I can take it up with the beginning of the next module and then that's how the classes proceed for me so one find day the thought came to me and

one find day the thought came to me and many of my many of the people have said to me at various levels how do I get to learn more about what you do and I said okay here is my notes us it the way you see fit I'm not claiming originality of the content I'm only claiming originality of the way they are presented um be very honest about it none of the stuff that I talked about except for a few things here and there are my own creation right I mean of course I talk about my research and that part would be my creation most of it is something that I'm copying from a textbook or I'm inspired by a text or yeah something from the others I posted

yeah something from the others I posted it I just said you know if a kid out there downloads it reads it and feels that he or she has understood micro a little better I feel honored so therefore that's the intent with which this course has been sent last year one of my students also has um you know very nicely transcribed my entire game theory class notes and she gifted me a copy I made some edits to it and then I posted it on on my LinkedIn as well the entire you know 25 session this is class notes previous one was a summary but this is actually a class notes and that class notes became an inspiration for me to

notes became an inspiration for me to even launch a corser a course on game theory that pretty much anybody can do for free you want a certificate yeah it costs you some otherwise it's fre so I teach micro with a little of game theory in it and Game Theory with a little of micro and behavioral economics in it so therefore that's how it is yeah that so if you really want to just check my LinkedIn post from absolutely months ago 7even months ago you should be able to see a lot of uh resources and I think latest post will tell you about my course amazing yeah thank you so much for that overview and how to find not only find these resources but the work you've done to accumulate them and make them

to accumulate them and make them available to everybody I think that's I mean I didn't know that was a thing that was even possible so um you know kudos to you for going ahead and doing that um kind of from that from there Professor I'm when I'm getting at next I I think is um in terms of the general we'll say quality of Education as like a catchall umbrella term here um what are some things that you think the IMs do really well when it comes to imparting a world- class you know business education and I'm trying to on some level maybe contrast it with anything you saw at Northwestern but if not that's totally fine also I mean I think it's a relatively easier question in the sense

relatively easier question in the sense that IM I think to me the real value comes in with the fact that they're very connected with the with the industry outside uh at least the top six um then I don't know much about the that's totally fine yeah we can focus on the top six see like they connect with the world of practice and I'll specifically speak about a because this is the school that I'm most familiar with of course but I am in touch with some colleagues in these places and I believe things may not be that difficult um same is the story with ISB as well I think the amount of connect that one has with practice probably makes a huge difference I mean I work as a senior fellow in a law firm

I work as a senior fellow in a law firm as well um not work rather I'm associated with a law firm as as a think tank legal think tank as a senior fellow so therefore pretty much many debates in the competition policy in Delhi uh I mean I'm clued into it in the conversation so therefore these are the things that come to the class so therefore what allows these schools um you you know the ability is that you take a textbook you define a topic but then the students are not going to be connected with this topic not in this generation where attention spans are in seconds you got to connect it with what they've seen in Instagram yesterday probably as a video clip um and that's where the ability of the instructor lies and this ability will only come if you're really clued into the happenings

you're really clued into the happenings around the world why is for instance uh all the big Tech platforms why are they in legal trouble why is it that they're being discussed online in the news with both positive and negative connotation um that's one second one is of course the research requirement would mean that you are reading a lot and your reading improves your horizons and improved Horizon in a teacher is always good to bring to the class so therefore these are the two three reasons I mean and the third one of course is well an Alum alumni of these school at least a day they're very keen to come to the class and deliver their um two on any topic that I teach um so therefore that's another reason why I would say that we able to get a very good class a world

able to get a very good class a world class education to our students without much problem yeah that that makes sense to me um just a couple call outs on that response the first being that um can you help me understand just a little bit in in in what ways that those connections with the industry are forced so is it just organizations on campus that interact search you publish your research industry has problems they see that you are a person who would probably have a perspective on the problems that they actually have I mean so for instance I had published and i' had given talks at various common fora involving competition so therefore if you're a competition lawyer or if you're a firm that's facing a competition issue you probably would think this is the guy

you probably would think this is the guy who could probably answer it for you and then they would reach out and that's how and then I give a lot of talks to law forms here and there and they may say okay for this problem maybe this guy is the most appropriate one to write a report about the government to the same way it works they may have an issue I mean I may they may feel that I may be the right person who would probably be able to do say something about it I work a lot on Healthcare U specifically I published on tuberculosis so therefore if there's a tuberculosis lied plan and somebody who is designing the plan happened to read my paper then maybe a

happened to read my paper then maybe a connection is fored right I mean or Doctor Who is working on TV happens to read my paper in fact actually one of my other papers which is going into publication shortly happened because I gave a talk about TB and one of the doctors heard it and reached out to me saying can we do something today so that's how it works I'm so curious about that like do you also have a hobby in you know medicine like I'm sorry I don't know know how not supposed to prescribe any medicines I'm being very clear about that it's just that one of my research areas is public heal um interesting wow one of the places where a lot of money is spent on is

where a lot of money is spent on is Healthcare so therefore economics is everywhere so that's how I get a lot into healthcare related research and that's how Healthcare becomes one of my passionate areas and the technology how technology is constantly evolving and changing these are the two areas I work on so therefore firms in this area are naturally interested makes sense really appreciate that that that I understand now how that connect is Contin Contin forged between you know institutes and companies the other thing that you said that caught my attention was um the very reduced attention spans of students can you just tell when you're in a class and you're teaching and you can you just tell who is paying attention versus who isn't I would like to believe I do um

isn't I would like to believe I do um normally I don't allow any electronic gadgets okay interes very clear about it and I don't mind adding factiously I've gotten very good at throwing chob so therefore if people are sleeping or whatever they get a shot from me every once in a while as a wakeup call so therefore I've become very good at so I see most often than not you can make out I mean this is where instructor engagement is very important teaching a classroom me is an art you're not going and delivering some some content you're delivering a performance in which content is the script but you have to do a lot of AD liing to your script and you

a lot of AD liing to your script and you need to be able to keep people in engage maybe you do cold calling maybe you ask people to comment on what you're saying I mean I don't know there are several ways in which you can you know engage a class gr one of my favorite experiences or one of my favorite classes that I took at you know the pdub school was strategic management and the whole class was just structured around essentially just case-based learning so every lecture was the case you had to read it beforehand and then the class was really just an interaction do you do you do case-based learning as it sounds like not because you said you mostly have your own notes that you've made is that

your own notes that you've made is that right uh you know listen cases to me are some of the props they're not necessarily the be all and all of au so I'm fairly fungible with the cases some of them are my papers I wrote on real life phenomena not necessarily structured in the form of case study but nevertheless a real life problem that we discussed in the class so all kinds of stuff are possible so I do I can't say I do cases but at the same time I won't say I don't do cases I do a mixture ofes and everything sense makes sense yeah absolutely and so taking again a few steps back where we had started around things that you said

had started around things that you said so well and you put it into words so well what IMS do really well I'm curious to hear your perspective on now things that IMS could be better at so listen I think the world is changing very fast I mean I think the industry is changing at a phenomenally fast rate while I think we do okay in terms of adapting to the change and our classes continuously are on the Move in terms of new stuff that's coming out and all that stuff one could always argue that that can be done a little better um you know see I think that goes through with every B School in this planet but nevertheless according to me these are some of the things that

to me these are some of the things that any B school can do better updating your curriculum faster bringing in the most relevant topics to the class they happen I'm not saying that they don't they happen at a fairly large fairly fast clip but it can always be faster I think that's the only thing that I like makes sense and on your note around how quickly the pace of change has become at least in the past you know few years um what do you think are some changes that or yeah what do you envision the future of business and business education to look like in India maybe in the next 5 10 years do you think there'll be way more IMS or other other institutes that aren't as Premier will kind of you know

aren't as Premier will kind of you know become bigger how do you think that will play down you see that there's going to be a lot of Technology investment in education um you already are seeing a worldwide Trend where the 2-year MBA and the one-ear MBA you know both of one year NBA gaining traction at a faster clip um right two years remains sply popular but one year is gaining traction on the other side true I actually see that there's going to be a lot of learning that happens online I mean postco I can absolutely say that our industry interaction has increased manifold uh very simple reason being oh now you discovered that there is this mechanism through which we could talk to each other so for instance I don't know who the audience of this particular podcast are uh but nevertheless I'm reaching to a set of people hopefully

reaching to a set of people hopefully they'll learn something from listening to me and uh um this is happening at a faster clip right I mean so therefore I expect this techn ology intervention to happen more and more and more in the classroom and the classroom discussion becoming richer and richer as the days go by I think I expect that to happen in the coming days I see short courses focused courses gaining a lot of traction in the coming days I don't know yeah yeah um I guess just some answer to your question no you definitely did yeah and I know it's kind of hard when you don't really U I definitely should have done a better job sharing who our

done a better job sharing who our audience is but I can happy I'm happy to touch on that a little bit it's basically um students well not students but you could say working professionals um between 25 and 35 that are you know curious that like to learn new things new ideas how world how the world Works in various ways and um there is usually some overlap between the India and the US when it comes to this audience because some of them most of them are from India but currently in the US might go go backun let me do a bit of marketing for myself with your permission um absolutely please please please I have my course a course on Game Theory done in a very very very non-technical format it is probably one of the most highly

it is probably one of the most highly subscribed electives at IMA so therefore I would love it if people check it out I if you want a certificate I think it costs you a little bit but otherwise it's absolutely free I am at a stage in my career where I want to reach more people and that's precisely the reason why I'm s suggesting that they do this course sorry for the commercial break if you will no no honestly actually and I was going to tell you before but um I was going to literally check it out because it's so funny yesterday I was at a friend's house and they had a book on Game Theory and again I know the I've spent one hour of lecture worth

spent one hour of lecture worth listening to that I know what it's like or what it's about but that's about it it's very surfice level and I know that it's one of the most important or one of the things you use daily pretty much like the Cold War between US and Soviet Union was it balls down to game theory in many ways so I'm extremely intrigued by that so I don't know about others but I would 100% be checking that out and I'm really really curious to see how that goes thank you yeah yeah absolutely and then uh kind of on our last segment here a little bit and we'll be going into you know really subjective things but these are just things I've always wondered and never really had somebody

wondered and never really had somebody to ask so I'm just going to take the time here um I guess what is your general thought around people that say that you don't need you know an MBA education to start a successful business there's many examples of people that have done it without any formal education what do you say to those people that think that no they are right I mean absolutely okay but there's a Nuance to it listen I think most of the stuff that you could learn online there are courses etc etc so therefore why do you actually join a school that becomes an important question right you can you can avoid mistakes that other people have learned the hard way I think to me that's what a business education is all

that's what a business education is all about and there are of course some skills um leveraging for instance um understanding what Financial metrics to look at for a company these are hard skills that You' learn data analytics these are skills that you could learn on YouTube as well I mean instead of curating for yourself 50 60 70 courses on YouTube you're saying that this is my 2-year period that I actually best second thing is that NBA should lead to what I call a self reflection phase if you're working and you are continuously involved in working and you're doing a video here and a video there how much of that reflection is even possible true very true question having a dedicated time for yourself and saying yeah I've done my classes I've learned the following how does it apply to me going forward what fascinates me

to me going forward what fascinates me life what is it that I want to do going forward I mean these are the questions that you want to spend time thinking about this is another value that I see that an NBA brings to the table for you which a curation of courses may not necessarily bring to the table a final place where I think NBA kind of comes together for you is the peer group you're talking about people who are constantly thinking about the same things that you're thinking over and over again from multiple perspectives N I don't know but one of the biggest USPS of any management school has to be the diversity in the class um yeah and you completely agree absolutely um oh my God I mean I think the way an economist

I mean I think the way an economist looks at the world and the way a doctor looks at the world and the way a CA looks at the world and the way a mom looks at the world are very very very different a mom CA may look at the world very differently from a mom and Junior I'll be very clear about that as well so therefore um you know so or a dad um you know Arts graduate will look at a world very differently from a mom age I you know there's a lot of diversity that comes to the table for instance I mean you know I am working as I said on TBT

you know I am working as I said on TBT is a health problem I've actually had arguments about um you know the treatment patterns how to make them better while I will not tell you this is the drug you need to take or etc etc can I think of better delivery mechanisms can I actually think of better incentive mechanisms can we actually justify the additional cost that one pays for curing TV my perspective comes from cost cost cost cost a doctor what is a breakthrough that I can have to cure you better a sociologist is more worried about TV from the point of view of hey it's a social disease it's spreads like crazy so how do I actually think about social ramifications if a person has TV

social ramifications if a person has TV specifically in India this family is you know boycotted by the surroundings I mean there are social ramifications for that that's how the sociologist will look at if look at HIV for instance the biggest problem is psychological forget about the disease and its prognosis and everything else it's actually psychological the patient goes through a lot of trauma so therefore you cannot tell me that it is a problem of doctors alone a psychiatrist and a psychologist psychotherapist has to be involved together in the treatment of an HIV patient so to me this is what diversity brings to the table and this is exactly what a b school should train you on in

what a b school should train you on in embracing the diversity of thought and you know sharpening your decisions you cannot have uh you cannot have a uniform 45 year old um you know pontificating on how the world needs to work in fact actually 45 year old should not be pontificating on how the world uh needs to work I mean a 60-year-old should definitely not be the world is probably screwed up for so many generations already so therefore let's be very very clear so to me these are the these are clear so to me these are the important elements of an MBA education to sit on a case study with a bunch of classmates who have very different views of the world uh from you so for instance an American looks at an operations problem and says follow Sops an Indian looks at an operations problem

an Indian looks at an operations problem and say what is the jugar in this I hope your audience understand the word jard oh 100 be speak smartness right jard in this that's what I tend to ask as an Indian correct um so therefore and even within India a tamilan may think very differently from a Telugu think very differently from a Gujarati right and which is very different from what a Bengali thinks so this diversity of thought process is what I think an MBA brings to the table so therefore is it strictly necessary from a skill standpoint to do an MBA probably not but as a holistic package probably it's useful again let me be very clear I'm I make my living teaching MBA so therefore I'm bound to tell you that MBA is us you

I'm bound to tell you that MBA is us you don't necessarily have to take me at my face value yeah I mean first of all that that you're entire what you just laid out about the usage of diversity and how you kind of Blended it together with the work that youve doing in public health was so well articulated I like thank you so much for painting such a vivid picture across various you know sections stuff you said about how it affects you know Society at scale and the various ways it affects them like it makes so much sense to me I I always thought and you know you always read that yeah diversity is important it's our strength but I actually don't don't think until just now I fully deeply realized why it is that it's so much sought after and

is that it's so much sought after and the immense immense uses that it has so really appreciate that I thought that was really really well done and I'm just also long time for a long time let me be maternity policy for women were being designed by some mid middle-aged men sitting in some corners of the capital city of the government right so therefore you know why diversity is needed enough no totally that that's such a mic drop moment um and and I guess sorry I know I keep saying last and keep going on but you're just such a treasure Trove of information I I promise this is my actual last I have 10 minutes for you that's all because I have a meeting in absolutely y i I will make sure to you

absolutely y i I will make sure to you know end within that um as somebody that's you know while still fairly young but very um passionate about Healthcare also like I feel like it's I really want to make a difference in whichever way I can specifically in India um and for context I'll be moving back next year for good you know like permanently very um yeah um what are some somebody who made that switch almost 14 years ago now 15 years ago now 20 N I believe I came back so it's 15 years this December it will be 15 years uhhuh I have a strong feeling you may not regret it you know maybe yeah I I needed to hear that cuz I think about that almost every other day

think about that almost every other day you know what maybe I'll give you a slight different thing to chew on and will yeah you know in the sense that this has been My Philosophy that I think I advocated to several of my friends relatives cousins siblings everybody if you're a Nobel material yeah don't come back here be honest I think at that Elite rarified World maybe India is not yet up there maybe it is in some circles I don't know but uh in social sciences and all that stuff probably it is not and I think your chances getting that Nobel eventually increase in the western world than in India again if you're at maybe you know making your ends meet a little more than that don't come back again conditions will not be great for you if you're anywhere about this and

you if you're anywhere about this and below this below that rarified world I think India is definitely a good place for you you might have doubts but in the long run it still is a good one and this is a market to hedge on right now there's no doubt for sure and just to quickly clarify on the Nobel thing you mean just in terms of research I Academia I also meant if you're going to be the next uh Bill Gates if you're going to be the next uh Elon Musk um I think the chances that you're going to blow up simply because you know of network effect in the sense that you're in the middle of a community that does this stuff it adds a lot um you know you're not an individual genius it's a society that that took advantage

it's a society that that took advantage of your individual and needed to I see you had an idea that I want to do an electric car but you needed a some a designer who put a shape to it you needed a technologist who who had an engineer who actually made it a reality you had a brilliant marketeer who made sure that it works out so therefore this combination is probably not yet there in India it is getting there I'm not joking about it it's getting so that's what I mean when I said Nobel material you are in the rarified um you know environment in every sense of the word in the in the in the You're The Cutting Edge of Technology not just the cutting of now

Technology not just the cutting of now if you look at cutting technology many Indian firms are also using cutting as technology many of them are using in their business model but the creator of chat gbt that's a different ball game Al together yeah totally that you're talking about maybe not I mean I have my doubts yet for yeah I think that tracks with what I had in mind how many years do you think before India has a version of Elon Musk that's a very difficult question to answer maybe tomorrow for all that you care and maybe 20 years later also we still answering the same thing I don't know I mean that's that's a that's an impossible question to answer without a crystal ball um even with that I doubt so fair enough I mean

with that I doubt so fair enough I mean I see that pieces moving in right direction and uh I see the pieces moving in right direction on multiple dimensions so therefore I know the thing about technology is that it is never a gradual shift it is just a tonic shift overnight yeah so one can't even predict these things so therefore I'll leave it at that I'll not answer that question if you're okay with it totally um Professor it's been such an absolute Delight to you know learn from your experiences and all the amazing um wealth of information that you've shared here today I feel like I could genuinely go four hours but I know we have a end and no unfortunately another talk no yeah absolutely I I just genuinely want to thank you for taking the time today for our listeners and um yeah I'll be linking your course in the link in

linking your course in the link in description to this video and on Spotify thank you so much I hope you have a great rest of your apprciate it bye that brings us to the end of episode 24 of The Ready Set to podcast I would like to thank all of you for sharing these conversations with those that continue to benefit from them if you would like to support me the easiest way to do that is by subscribing to my YouTube channel and or leaving me up to a five star rating on Spotify my comment section on YouTube is the place I go to for feedback as well as guest nominations please feel free to always leave a comment because that really just makes

comment because that really just makes my day and makes this all worth it especially on days like this where it it gets hard to try and do my best catch you all in the next one new episodes every Wednesday