How To Advise Action To Fight The Climate Crisis (Advisor to German Govt Circular Economy Initiatives in India POV) - w/ Jasprit

This is the problem that concerns everybody, as long as they are human. You're wearing your fear phones, right? Ask yourself, how is this made? And where is it going to go after them done losing them? Ben was the first time you realized you wanted to have a professional career around time-adaction and circular economy. I'm Naman Pandey, and in this episode, future-not-expert is just pre-op call. Just pre-op is a climate change advisor at GIZ. Don't you guys have to do international analysis?

Which is an organization that works on behalf of the German government, the European Union, to conserve natural resources, minimize climate-related risks, and restructure agri-food systems to make them sustainable? Where I work is the capital enterprise coming up to Germany, and we implement projects sanctioned under this larger framework. We work on natural resource management, energy, urban and industrial development. We work on plastics, textiles.

What are some misconceptions, especially around India when it comes to climate change? Because you're planning for the city, it's also across a time horizon. We're a very heterogeneous country, so something that's working in Shimla, it's going to be very different from what's working in Kerala. One concept we studied at LSE was carbon lock-ins, physically-infrastructure systems ingrained in the way we function. A circular economy manages us to revisit those systems and also overhaul.

Before her second master's degree in environmental policy and regulation from LSE, just we got her bachelor's in physical planning, from school of planning and architecture, New Delhi. These are the things that I can do that will drive a tangible change towards the future of my country and the world as a whole. India is uniquely positioned because we're still growing, and we can still integrate climate action in our growth. So this might be a dumb question, but what exactly happens to a landfill once it's filled? In keeping with that theme of learning from somebody, that's just two steps ahead of us.

Instead of an expert, my goal is to highlight this extremely rewarding but underrated career track that just breathe and bark upon, and how you can do your bit to save the world. This is already said to podcast and to support it, please subscribe on YouTube and any other podcast apps. And now, without any further ado, here's just three. >> Welcome to the Ready Set Do podcast, where we learn from journeys of not experts who are just two steps ahead of us. >> Just speak, welcome. >> Hi, hi, Naman. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

>> I'm really excited to cover climate action and all of the amazing stuff that you've been doing in your career, which will be going into the details of that in just a little bit. But when was the first time you realized that you actually wanted to do work or have a professional career around climate action and circular economy? >> Great. Thanks. Thanks for the question, Naman. So, I did my undergrad in urban planning.

It's actually the degrees called Bachelor in Physical Planning, but what we technically study is urban and regional planning, which is basically how community societies, cities, rural areas, very urban areas, grow, how they develop, and what are the systems that go into supporting this development and seeing this kind of growth. So, this is what I was studying. This is what I studied during my undergrad, and so two things happened, Naman, apparently. One is it's a very interesting program, and the first two years you're in class, but then the third year and fourth year you're for a very significant period of your time. You are kind of on the road because in every semester, we pick up a different place, a different geography. We go to that place, we study that place, and by that,

I mean, we actually as students go to physical surveys, understanding what really... So, you look at all sectors that contribute to the physical and economic development of that space. So, you're looking at housing, you're looking at transportation, you're looking at its local economy, if there are any industries, or if you are in a ritual, if you're looking at it from a regional perspective, you're looking at agriculture.

So, basically, all the dimensions that go into putting together this development. So, it was a very interesting, exciting phase. I'm very fortunate because as a result of what I was studying, I had the opportunity to travel across the country. We were in Gujarat, we were in Odisha, we were in Kerala, we were in Himachal. And so, you know, you're traveling and you're studying, and you're looking at different aspects of growth and development.

And it sort of built my understanding on what are the kind of factors that go into sort of putting together this growth story that we're all working with. So, that was one thing that happened. And in 2012, we had this opportunity to work on this project where we were putting together the strategy for UNICEF or on climate impacts across six states. And I think that was the key factor for me. That was kind of the turning point for me. Because, you know, I had traveled a lot, I had seen, I had spoken to all these people, but then I'm also doing this study supporting this professor.

And I think I've been very fortunate also in terms of having the right mentors at the time. So, this professor also kind of helped build my understanding on, you know, how climate change is going to become a very significant sort of challenge. And it's some opportunities as well, exactly. So, that was when I decided. So, this was third year. And then in the fourth year, in my final semester, we have to do a thesis. So, my thesis topic was to do with, if we were to integrate climate action in the way our cities are being planned, in the way our growth has been planned, what would that look like? And I looked at our statutory framework, which is the master plan of the city and sort of did an analysis of, okay, what are the climate factors and what is it that the master plan talks about?

And if we were to integrate to how would we ensure that we make our cities resilient, climate resilient, but also, you know, support in mitigating climate emissions. So, that was kind of the starting point. So, that's already so interesting. I literally have 36,000 different cohesions already from what you've laid out. But I'm going to use this one, at least as a jumping off point. What you said about how the course was built around the landscape, I think you mentioned the term, it was the physical landscape is what you were looking at.

So, can you maybe just for our listeners to help us rationalize, this kind of gives us an example of when you say that, are you just looking at infrastructure within the city, like how certain neighborhoods are maybe like what's the population density like, and what we can do to make sure that like the infrastructure supports all that, or was it more towards other side of things like, if you just give us an example, I think that will be really helpful for us to understand what it is that this was doing, because it sounds really, really fascinating.

So, yes, to answer your question, it does both, it looks at core infrastructure requirements. So, as per the regulatory mechanism that drives all of this, you have a certain number of amenities, you have to provide to a certain population. So, for every 10,000 people, you have to have so many hospitals, so many schools, other infrastructure, infrastructure, community centers, commercial spaces, green spaces. So, we're definitely, so that's our core focus, but it's not, so we're looking at it because you're planning for the city, it's also across a time horizon. So, we're doing a lot of population extrapolation in the next 10 years when the authorization grows, what is going to be the requirement in the next 20 years.

So, you've got as a cohort in that particular program, each one of us is looking at different sectors. So, at some point, I'm looking at population or I'm looking at green spaces, these are from the place, infrastructure. And within infrastructure, you've got water, sea bridge, all of that. One very interesting thing that has shaped, unless I would like to share, that has shaped my sort of thought process is, you know, every time you start this planning process, the first thing you have to do is, and this is what we also do, I think, you also do this at work now, you know, understanding the problem and sort of curating and simplifying the problem, right? And then it's based on that defining, okay, what is it that we're working towards?

I've been very fortunate now, this is what I think now back then, I used to find it kind of annoying, because there used to be one student in the class who had the responsibility of putting together a methodology chart for the entire class and- Interesting stuff. So, it's kind of consolidate all of the data that you had collected across all of this into one tangible format, right? More than data? Yeah, more than data sort of put together the approach. So, why look at the what and look at the how, and of course, this was a collaborative process, I wasn't doing this myself, it was my place, but it was sort of, I was kind of leading that whole thing, you know, so you look at what are the challenges that places are facing right now, there are water-related challenges, there are

powers, you know, all sorts of, what is the kind of vision that we're seeing for that place, what is it, and this is not just very physical or materialistic in the sense, not just focusing on infrastructure, but also that socio-cultural parameters, and India is a beautiful country, we're a very heterogeneous country, so every space has its own, you know, something that's working in Shimla, it's going to be very different from what's working in Kerala, so yeah, so I was a part of, I was preparing this methodology many at times, and we're just the process of thinking, okay, what's happening now, what's going to happen later, and you know, how do you put this all together in not more than 50 words, I want to define the object. Honestly, I just, you know, feel kind of,

maybe I'm outing myself here, but this is, legitimately, the first time I'm even hearing of, of course, like this, and honestly, if I could go back, turn the dial back and do something else with my life, this would be up there in terms of things that I would be very interested in, just because, think of the, and I'm sure you've obviously thought of it, it's a rhetorical question, but just think of the impact that you're making here, you're literally designing a city, you know, like there's very few things that I feel are more critical to, as you said, any country's growth story than this. Real quick, one last question on this was, were you working mostly with like existing cities and kind of trying to look at how to make them better, or were you looking

at net new cities from scratch that didn't even exist, or was it a mixture of, it was a mixture of both none, most of the places we went to, we were looking at existing structures, but then we were also looking at, we didn't really, like I did not, when I was doing the program, we didn't work on any Greenfield projects, which is basically something from scratch, but then we, we did have certain components where there was an element of it, for example, if you're looking at a regional level planning exercise, so you already have your city, but that city is going to grow, right, and you're looking at it from a regional perspective, and you have these smaller towns around it, so you're not just focusing on what's happening right now within the physical boundary of that

space, but you also sort of, you have a big picture perspective of, okay, when this grows, this is what is going to happen, and this is how it's going to get interconnected in many ways, with the towns around it, so in that regard, yes, makes sense, and I understand if you're not able to speak to this, which is told, like you can just tell me, if that's the case, but I am curious, what were some of the, I guess, just if you picked just any person, you can just take me, for example, what were one or two findings from this entire experience of just urban planning in general, that you think would surprise the average Indian person to know about their cities, so you mentioned earlier that there's a requirement for a certain amount of green spaces that should

have, you know, like when you were sharing all of that, I thought that was really cool, I didn't actually realize there were stipulations around that, but if you, if anything comes to mind around other things that might surprise us when it comes to Indian cities, I am actually very curious to hear your take. -Surprise us when it comes to Indian cities. -Most from the planning perspective, but yeah. -I don't know if, well, I don't think surprise might be the right word, but I think something that we should ask citizens, and I'm speaking from a very personal point of view, is that, you know, we have, as I said, we have city-level master plans, right? I don't know how many citizens really sort of engage with their city for that. -I didn't even know that existed until 10 minutes

ago. -Right, and I would just, it's very cool, like, you know, when I saw Daddy's master plan, you just correlate things on so many other levels, because, you know, you're living in that space, but then when you actually see the space from a whole different perspective as a city and the infrastructure and, you know, everything it has to offer, and a master plan looks at everything, it also looks at elements just heritage, right? So you look at all your landmarks and your monuments and all of that, so I think it will be a very interesting process for everyone to just go have a look at what the master plan is, and interestingly, master plans are also then subdivided, like your city subdivided into zones and local areas, so that just sort of helps you, given

understanding of what is it, you know, what is it about that space you're living in, so I think that could be an interesting, well, that's why I think that's, I mean, I'm surprised by the heads, though, I'm sure that is news for most of our listeners, like, I definitely didn't even know that, so my understanding was back in the day, some British dude or, you know, do that, must have been like, okay, but this is how we're going to do it, and then they did it, and then call it today, and then we're just stuck with that, so it's just good to know that, you know, that's not the case, I guess, so moving forward here, I know you then got went for your master's degree in at LSE, so can you talk through your experience over there, what was maybe some of

one or two more notable maybe achievements or things that you learned that really blew you away in your journey towards what you do currently, which is what we will get to, up once this particular section is done. So what happened was that I did my first master's in environmental planning, and that's when I got more engaged with climate action, and there are a lot of giable and national level policies, frameworks, that sort of, you know, orient action towards climate change, and I realized that, so one thing that was very clear by then, no one was that I was interested in sort of contributing to this effort towards addressing climate change fighting, and I also had this understanding that, okay, India is also uniquely positioned because we're

still growing, and we can still integrate climate action in our growth, we can align our development along climate action, and it would be interesting to see the larger policy framework and governance mechanisms that can support and contribute to this, and so it was a combination of policy, the black man climate action, and LSE is an unparalleled sort of place to be in the study that says that's how that happened, and I would like to, if we have the time, I would like to talk about my experience in LSE as well. Yeah, I would love to, yeah, so I would love to hear that, and in addition to that, just speak from what you just laid out, I am also curious if you could share, I'm really curious about what you said about policy making, essentially because,

you know, again, it's just one of those things that you just feel like, yeah, I'm sure it's somebody's job, but you know, this is my first, personally, my first opportunity of talking to somebody that studied, you know, more than glancing through a few Wikipedia articles, which is the extent of my studies. So, when you say studying policy, does that entail mostly looking at case studies of what worked in the past versus what didn't work, or is it kind of more hands-on where you have to solve problems that are maybe like practice problems and such, what does that look like? Like, can you take us through the journey of learning about policy from an institution like, you know, LSE? Yeah, so it's a mix of everything that you said, Naman, I would categorize it into sort of four key buckets, there's a lot more to it, but four

luxury buckets. So, you're looking at, there are certain, what do I say, certain components to policy making, right? You're looking at regulatory frameworks that exist. First of all, you're looking at the core sector. So, it could be, you know, we're talking about climate, but it could also be health, it could be education. So, you're looking at the core sector and you're trying to understand what is it that the existing policy is doing, but there are still challenges that we're facing.

So, core problem identification and just sort of planning for the future that, okay, in the next five years, seven years, 10 years, this is what we foresee. So, one is understanding the given structures around it. The second thing that we did as students was, you have a lot of policy theories and you have a lot of frameworks that help you understand how policies work. And you know, the, well, there I say, the beauty of it all is that you're studying, but you're also parallely developing this understanding of why the world works, the way it works, because you're looking at all these very exciting frameworks. So, for example, I'll tell you, one of my favorite frameworks that we study is the multi-level perspective theory, MLP. Of course, it also faces a lot of

criticism for multiple reasons, but what this framework essentially talks about is that change happens across three levels, okay? So, you've got a niche, you've got a regime and then you've got your landscape. So, your niche is where core innovation happens. So, for example, just, you know, let's take EVs, electric vehicles, right? So, there was this technological innovation that happened at a very micro level, but then you also have a regime. Your regime is your miso level sort of structure. So, your markets, your institutions, your innovation also has to resonate or sort of, well, land country. Yeah, exactly. So, it's going to only work when it's connected to that. So, that's at the regime level. And then you have a landscape level sort of framework,

which is basically your politics, your global geopolitics or things like public interest. So, these are larger frameworks that sort of define what I won't say define, but sort of, you know, indirectly govern societies, we have value systems. And so, for example, now a lot of young people are interested in climate action. So, at your landscape level, you have this growing public concern about climate change. So, that's going to define a lot of things that will happen at the regime and at the niche level and vice versa. So, it works both ways. It's not just bottom-up always. Yeah. For it to work, it has to sort of be bottom-up, but so anyway, so we were studying a lot of these frameworks. Then there are multiple frameworks like these. There's one on the agenda

setting. You know, how do things actually come into the policy picture? So, a lot of things that have happened at India in the past five years, right, they become an important sort of priority for the government of India. And this whole process of how this happens, why this happens, there are multiple factors, social, economic factors that contribute to it. So, just studying these processes. And then, so you've got these frameworks and how they help me with, of course, I was studying these from a policy perspective, but they also helped build my own mental model and thinking systems in my, you know, sort of way of processing and understanding the world.

So, that was a very interesting process. That was so cool. Yeah. Yeah. But then you also have, I think the beauty of the very exciting part about it all is that you can take up any course, you can take up any credit, what we call subject in India. As long as you're able to justify how it contributes to your larger program. So, I took up this course on called mixed methods research, which was quantitative and qualitative research. You're studying core data assessment, statistics, you know, just so applying tools like RCTs, randomized controlled trials on just studying the effects before and after. So, that was a very sort of technical part of what I was doing.

But that again, very exciting because the cohort is a mixed cohort. So, you're not just looking at all these schools from a climate perspective, but I had in my cohort, I had peers from the health program, I had peers from the economic studies program. So, you get a monkey faceted understanding of these tools and then you also have the option of studying finance, studying governance. Yeah. So, it's very flexible. So, you're to go, you know, going back to what I said earlier, these back. So, you have your, and you have your policies, you have these frameworks, you're looking at very tangible tools on how do you apply these tools to policymaking?

Yeah. I mean, just the fact for me that you're able to study governance, policy, all of these things that have just, you know, really infatuated me to no end, but you know, I never just was able to formally try and learn this. Like again, watching 200 YouTube videos in a year is not formal education. Let's accept it as much as, you know, you still learn stuff, but I feel like when you're in that environment to your point, what you were saying about the place of health, like just completely different magical things happen.

Slide detour here, but I am curious to kind of hear about really just kind of your collection process into LSE. I guess, can you quickly walk us through maybe what's like a standard profile that, you know, kind of you need as kind of bare minimum in order to even be considered, because I know it's really competitive, but I've actually never been able to quantify just how competitive it is. So, if you could do that. So one good thing is that, well, good thing in the sense to start with, unlike an MBA that you're trying to do outside India, most of the good universities and colleges ask for a minimum five years of work experience. So no, so this is not the case in what I'm saying is this is not the case in this ticket policy program that I was in. I mean, your regular TOEFL and if you're

doing a economic policy program, I think you also have to keep GRB. But so leaving all that aside, it's it all comes down to your SOP and your resume. These are the two deciding factors. And my suggestion would be work for at least four years in the field before going to do your masters there. It's a whole different experience. I mean, I was very fortunate because I had exposure, I had hands on experience of the ground because of the program, I was in before this at the school of planning and architecture, starting urban planning, right? So it was four years up. And and that also, every time we had discussions in class at LSE, right, I could visualize things because I have been on now. So it's still going to be very interesting. I had a lot of my classmates

were had just completed their bachelors in the States or elsewhere and had come to do a masters immediately. So of course, it's it's a different learning experience for them as well. But it it yeah, in terms of value addition, it's it's a whole different experience. If you work on the field and I mean on the ground and you then come for a master's that's, that's my side of it. And yeah, you the key things that they look at are your, your writing and your communication skills, because you know, you're you're going to be working on policy, at least for the program that I was in. So yeah, you have to meet certain requirements in terms of your writing skills.

Yeah, and obviously, even just the ability, like obviously, just make having ideas isn't enough, or it means nothing if you cannot share them in a manner that right other people can understand. So obviously, that makes sense that almost is like an implied actually, like at any of these elite institutions, especially. So who? So from there, what was where did your journey take you next? So you're you've just graduated from LSE, one of literally the most elite institutions in the world. What do you do next? What I wanted to do next was a PhD. I act like for the one plus three program, which is one year of MSC plus three years of PhD. But then during my final sort of term, so they don't have a semester. I mean, well, they kind of do, but they they call it

term. I did my my thesis was based on a topic in Delhi and I came down and I had when I went, I had thought I'd, you know, go to a PhD. But then when I came back, I had certain ideas. I had certain topics in mind that I was working on for a PhD. I was speaking to a few professors. But then I just felt, you know, when I was back, I just felt this need to maybe work for a bit. I mean, I was working on certain topics. I also submitted certain classics outside LSE for a PhD, but it didn't feel like this was it because, you know, when you're doing a PhD, you kind of become like an expert in that particular domain. And although those topics were interesting, it didn't give me that kick that, you know, okay, yes, this is what I want to be so focusing on for the next

four years of my life. So I just thought, okay, maybe I should, you know, wait it out. And as I said earlier, that it's always great to work in the field and then go back to study. So I just know, maybe let's work in the field a little bit. So to be very honest, no minute was, it was not very easy that transition because you're kind of in between a lot of things. You're looking at PhDs, but you're also looking at jobs and you're trying to figure out a lot of the aspects around that. But then one good thing happened was there was this SDS and so the Sustainable Development Solutions Network Fellowship, which is the SDS and framework is kind of under the UN. So this fellowship is called the Local Pathways Fellow. And I found that very interesting because they were working on SDG's sustainable development goals, the implementation of SDG's

climate action. And this was all from a very, you know, youth perspective working on local problems and, you know, working on tangible issues that would, and addressing those that would contribute to achieving the SDG's. So it was a fellowship program. And how does one apply to one of these just for the record? So they have applications open every year, I think around November. I'm not sure. I think not if I... I'm just generally curious about what's the selection procedure, like you just apply online kind of and write your essay on why you should be shortlisted with their resume and such kind of... Exactly, exactly. And it's a doable program. And I think back really selected 12 fellows. So yeah, I chose, I was like, okay, we're still in between a lot of

things. And we're still trying to figure out a few things. So this fellowship seemed like a great option. It was online, but it was very intensive. We had... It's a doable fellowship, and you have online classes, well, not classes, but discussion forums. And then you're every... I think it was every three... So it was a nine month fellowship, and every three months you're given a topic sort of a project to work on. And the very exciting part is that, you know, you have fellows from all across the field. So you're sort of speaking to them about their local problems, but then how it contributes to those sort of areas. Change making. Really clear. And that was actually my sort of first dish, kind of the starting point of getting into circular economy and waste, because the topic we got

was related to waste management and to the SDG thought that. And my peers in my group were also working on waste in sub-Saharan Africa. So yeah, that's how it was the key entry point. And we put together a solution framework for informal waste workers, and that actually featured in the SDSN came up with this report on how do you address challenges across the whole sustainable development goals framework. And our solution featured this. That was very exciting for all of us.

So almost like a finalist in the world series of fellows that were shortlisted. I mean, that sounds like a huge deal actually. Wow. Good job. Good for you, too, on making that. From there, I'm actually kind of... I want to divert our attention a little bit to this topic of circular economies. While, you know, kind of preparing for talking to you, I did kind of read up on it a little bit, and it makes intuitive sense for me. But it would be great if you could, you know, kind of dumb it down for us and maybe just share in a brief, just like a brief walkthrough of what exactly circular economies are and what they seek to achieve predominantly. I know it's like a lot of trickle-down effects, but if you could at least share the major ones, that would be a great jumping off. Okay. If I had to put it very simply, number,

you're wearing your your phones right now, right? So you just look at them and you ask yourself, how is this made? And where is it going to go after them done using them? It starts with these two simple, well, simple, but very complicated questions, right? So the whole idea of circular economy is that we start re-envisioning how we look at products and materials across the value chain. So and by that, I mean, right from design, not even materials, forget materials, that's, you know, step two or three, but right from design to how we're going to dispose them or reuse a cycle, recycle any other, that's a whole different conversation. So to put it very simply, that's what circular economy is about. And it's sort of, it's a very interesting, I feel, opportunity for us to look at innovation because, you know, it's very strongly tied together

to climate action materials, material extraction, material usage contributes to about 50% of global emissions. And if we were to start looking at the solutions, we're currently working on from a circular economy perspective, from a material science, from a design, from a disposable perspective, I'm pretty sure that's, you know, it's, I mean, just think of it on those lines. It's a very driving idea. For sure, 100%. I guess from there where my mind is going is, I think the connection between circular economies and how they pertain to reduction of waste or at least smarter management of waste, that part's clear to me. The thing I'm still a little bit nebulous about in my head is, it does make intuitive sense that better waste management equals, like, you know, just basically

good, good earth or better climate. But can you help me kind of, you know, really put my finger on exactly how waste and climate action are related. Maybe if you could give like a tangible example, I think that would go a long way in kind of reinforcing that understanding. So absolutely. So see, there are two sides to it. Okay, one is, when you're talking about waste, you're talking about a certain product, you're talking about a certain material, right? Now, the extraction of that material has emissions associated with it. And when your, you know, that product is dumped in the landfill, so you've sort of, you know, it's the extraction process has had certain amount of, you know, emissions, but that's one side of it. The second is when a product,

when anything is disposed. So let's, let's take food, for example, right? And when we're looking at code emissions, so you're looking at your greenhouse gases and each gas has a global warming potential. So when things are disposed and when things are sort of quote unquote rotting, might not be the best term, but they're emitting gases and each of those gas has a certain global warming potential. So that's, yeah, so that's kind of how waste contributes to liquid change in terms of emissions. And so actually this night also be a dumb question, but what exactly happens to a landfill once it's filled? Like, sorry, you know, this is really something I should know. I feel like most people should know.

I know the, I understand the concept of landfills, where you just bring in the whole city or whatever areas of dump and just like leave it there. But what happens to it, actually, I've never thought about this. It's, it's just there stuff just lying there. And unfortunately, because it's all waste, yeah, it's all mixed waste, right? So it's creating, it's, sorry, it's creating leachate, which is basically your gooey fluid that has a vanilla strong smelch. And that's going to seep down into your groundwater. It's going to get into your soil. And obviously you have your emissions in the air. So yeah, your landfills are, they're just, it's just there. It's just a big dump of waste just lying there. And of course, I mean, you have rocks. You have rodents and birds

and, and all of these sort of creatures gnawing on it here and there. But then if you're going to, you know, the biggest problem is that it's, it's just, yeah, it's just gonna sort of be there. And there are materials that don't decompose. So correct. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And just from a very theoretical point of view. And I'm only really asking this because you've probably studied this, but just really in general around the world is landfilling still the kind of go to default method of waste management or is that not? There's a difference in what should ideally be happening to the waste and what's happening. So unfortunately, yes, we're still at a stage where a lot of cities are proactively addressing this, where there is this realization that we have to

reduce our landfills both in terms of volume and area. But we're still at the stage where we're building systems to sort of avoid this. But if you answer your question, there has been substantive action on this front where there is this idea of persecuting materials and seeing how each material can be processed further so as to avoid the amount of waste that goes into landfill. But you know, Naman, I want to come in here and see, that's exactly what happens. When we talk about circular economy, most of the conversation ends up going focusing on downstream solutions.

Waste management is a downstream solution, which is very important. That's such a great call out, yeah. I see where you're going with this, yeah. I don't worry about it, but we also have to focus on upstream solutions and conversations and all that. There'll be no waste in the first place, right? And you won't even have the problem to begin with, yeah. And what really puzzles and excites me at times is that, you know, to think of it, it seems like a very, I don't want to oversimplify this. But if we were just to ask ourselves, do I really need this thing? Like, what value does this product or this thing add to my life? Just sort of, you know, and that's what that's one of the key sort of hours of circular economy refused. The first thing is to ask yourself,

can I do a way with this thing? But yeah, and it's philosophically also a very complicated situation because the way society and human civilization is a world with sort of, you know, that is this aspirational component to it. How do I deal with that? There is emotional associated with things, but then you also have this whole idea that, okay, we have limited resources, we have a certain sort of, you know, you should look at donut economics, you have a certain sphere of things within which we can do things in terms of material extraction, in terms of waste disposal. So, yeah, how do I look at that? And the key is trying to achieve a balance, which is very tricky. But the good thing is there is, there's a lot of action happening and I'm very frustrated. And yeah, that's what I'm, you know, I would love to shine a flashlight on

next. I did, before I do that, I did really, really like what he said about how it's truly a philosophical at times almost religious. Like there's, yeah, there's just so many aspects linked with this as somebody that has like the movie slash book by club. The first thing that came to mind was when Tyler Durden says the things you own end up owning you, you know, and it just rings, especially true in times like these, where you see all of these past passion brands and all come up, you know, stuff that you're like, you're advertising something that can only be worn 10 times and you will have to throw it away after that. But at what cost, right? Where does it go? And you also did cost such a great or such a common misconception around this, right? That what he said about

we're always attacking the downstream. Why must it be like that? Let's not do that. So on that similar vein, what are some other misconceptions, especially around India when it comes to climate change and the type of topic? Okay, great, because I was going to make a point that sort of correlates to this question. See, when I say that we have to question, you know, things in terms of to does this really add value. I also want to reassure you that we also have to be realistic because we as, you know, as a as a community, we're also growing. And I understand how I mean, well, I work in this field. So it's a very pressing need. But I think it's also very important to be realistic and accept the fact that we will continue to grow. But opportunity we have

here is to raise. So the opportunity here is to define and align this growth in a way that it aligns with our climate goals. So to come to the question that you just posed, I would say so misconception might probably not be the right word because in India now there is this unset growing acceptance of okay, there is something changing in terms of, you know, your weather patterns and in terms of, yeah, because you have resources across the country with 50 degrees Celsius heat, right? We're doing this summer, which is just not normal. Yeah, it's actually so people might not be talking about it in a very technical sense. But there is this sort of unset accept, well, I wouldn't say accept this, but just this understanding that, okay, something is happening.

Let me just share an anecdote with you. This was also volunteered with child rights and new, which is an NGO that works on child rights. And this was after my first masters, I was just trying to understand the social dynamics of development and, you know, what are the challenges that sort of certain communities face. And we were working in this underprivileged community in Delhi. And we started, so we used to, I was teaching children there. And I started this English reading club where we would just pick up books and, you know, read and or just say stories just to sort of make them communicate. And what we were also doing was we were also supporting the admission of these children in the local schools. A lot of them were not going to school or were in and out of schools. So as volunteers, as community workers, we were

also supporting that. So I used to try inciting this conversation of climate change with these children. And they would obviously, you know, it was very different understanding for their men. There was this one child I remember. She was not in school. And I was trying to talk to her that, you know, you need to get your admission done. And I will need so and so ID. And I'm going to need these documents. Can you arrange their mask, your mother? And then we were also having conversations on climate change the same day, you know, we were talking about floods. And she said, Oh, you know, there was a flood back in my village. And she had some memories about it. And she spoke about it. And so so this was a conversation about climate change from an impact perspective. And

then when I had the conversation with her on her admission, and her mother told me that they had lost certain ID proofs, which were well, we had to put together a few documents. And then I told her that we know we're going to need that ID proof connected to another ID proof that we already had. And there was a very tight deadline in terms of getting her admission done. And if we were not meeting that she would miss out on a year of, you know, school act, she would have to join a great leader, but her age would have already. So anyway, so the point I'm trying to make is that so this was climate impact in terms of, you know, she was losing out on one year of education there. So I would say there's a misconception. It's just that you have to communicate about

climate action in a certain way with different communities. And I feel now there's also this need of not just talking about the problem, but we also need to talk about it from a from a CTA perspective call to action. Right, what is it that you can do? What is it that? And again, we're a very diverse country, socially, economically, culturally. So you, you obviously cannot have the same conversation with every one, you have to, the narrative has to be different. It has to be articulated in a way that that particular community is receptive, but the call to action, the solutions are affordable, accessible to that particular community as well. So it's, it's a very nuanced approach that is needed.

And it has to be a collaborative effort, right? You cannot blame somebody for doing certain things. As it would be, and I especially like what you said about that call to action piece, because I think it actually dovetails exactly with what really I'm trying to do here on, obviously with this podcast on a more philosophical level, I feel like this is where it begins, where if a person had nothing to do with any of this, I had no understanding. But then after listening to this conversation, then they're like, okay, now I know, as an educated young, whatever 20 to 25 year old person living in India, these are the following type of things that I can do without it being too intrusive on my day to day life, that will drive a tangible change towards the future of myself,

my community, my country and the world as a whole. So when you say call to action, and I know we cannot boil this ocean, so maybe do you have any specific CTA's for any young people that, you know, might be listening to this maybe 20 to 25 year olds, will just stick with the educated people for now. Obviously, you know, like you can argue that maybe that's not the best person or type of group to optimize for, but that just, that's just the first thing that came to mind.

Okay, so one thing with climate change is, and for young people is, so there are two things, okay, there is, I mean, to your question as well, what you can do at a personal level, I think most of us kind of, the cohort that you're talking about, educated, right, we more or less have an idea in terms of just just look at your consumption, what transportation modes do you use, the food you eat, the, you know, everything that it's a very lifestyle oriented, that's what I'm saying, that you have to have, right. It just leaps into everything pretty much food choices, everything, like, exactly, exactly, and in fact, there are, you know, I would, I would, it would be great for the young to sort of engage with, so for example, government of India has this very interesting,

very simple mission called mission life, which talks about what is it that you can do at an individual level, so it talks about energy, water, food, just consumption on multiple fronts, so you get that it's, it's very simple, it's very, I won't, I mean, well, it's very subjective, sort of easy to do, but so engage with, you know, these, these sort of formal conversations that are happening, but if, if you're going to look at it from a career point of view in terms of CTA, what is it that I can do, right, to engage on climate action? See, one thing is that you have to juxtapose climate action with your existing strengths, because it's one field that requires a lot of, you know, you have to be motivated, you have to be, you have to sort of keep going

at things, because it's, it's not easy, it's, there's a lot of hurdles here, you have probably way more, way way more hurdles than probably any other career path out there. Exactly, exactly, you know, one concept very quickly that we studied at LSE was lock-ins, carbon lock-ins, so a lock-in is basically, we already have infrastructure systems rather, not just physical, but also social habitual systems that are ingrained in the way we function, and what climate action, what circular economy kind of nudges us to do is question and sort of, I won't say overhaul, but just revisit those systems and make well in a way also overhaul them to create new systems.

So, and I know for this last section, I know there's obviously, you know, limited information that you can share on this, but can you maybe shed some light on the work that you've been doing at GIZ, which is where you're currently employed, and kind of just a day in the life, really, in terms of the type of work that goes on and what you get to contribute and get your hands dirty with on a daily basis? So, just to give you the audience the idea of what GIZ is and what is it the framework under which we work. So, I basically work on climate action, but the medium through which I'm working is international development cooperation, I'm going to call it DevCop because it's just too long. So, I work in DevCop, and DevCop happens international DevCop happens through

multiple modes. So, you have bilateral cooperation, you have multilateral cooperation. So, your UN is what falls under multilateral, because it's important. And bilateral cooperation is between two countries. So, this is where GIZ and Germany comes in, India and Germany, they have a bilateral cooperation agreement. So, it's basically two countries coming together to work towards common goals. Here, the common goals are the SDGs, climate action, and sort of just, you know, supporting growth that's more sustainable, sustainable development goals, as I said earlier. So, this is the broader framework, this cooperation agreement. Every two years, the heads of the state meet, and they sign partnership agreements, they sign our joint activations of intent,

which sort of, you know, it, well, I won't say, it kind of defines the sectors along which the two countries will work. There's a clear economy, energy, green hydrogen, all of this. So, this is like the larger framework. And GIZ, which is where I work, is the, it's a federal enterprise under the government. Well, it's a federal enterprise, the government of Germany. And what we do is we implement the projects that are sort of designed and sanctioned under this larger framework.

I said, GIZ works across multiple fronts of climate action. So, we have, we work on natural resource management, we work on energy, we work on urban and industrial development. We also work on skills, skills and economic growth. So, I work in the circular economy and climate change team. Working on a lot of circular economy, we work on plastics, we work on textiles. I personally don't put the penis, circular economy team does on electronic waste. And so, this is, you know, the larger framework. In terms of my core work, I think it's, I've been very fortunate now, one because I've sort of been in a position where I understand the multiple levels at which change is happening, but also have a very set spectrum wide understanding of things on climate action. So,

you know, and what I mean by this is I get to work with federal, with union ministries in India, I get to work with state governments, but I also get to work with research institutions, think tanks that are sort of doing the core research on climate science. And again, since about, yeah, and, and, and very interesting part about this is I'm also getting to work with a lot of startups now, because these are sort of the key innovation drivers. So, you know, working on what's, what's the legal technology, what's, what's coming up in terms of material science. And you have some very interesting startups and companies are working on very interesting climate action solutions. So, our role here is we suggest it pilots solutions on the ground. And, and we sort of we pilot the

solution, but we also do capacity building to ensure that that solution sustains and scales. We also do policy advocacy with the government, you know, we sort of, you know, there are larger policy frameworks, we do research with, and, but we also work on piloting innovation, and which is where we've been working with, well, not directly, but through, through programs, we also work with certain programs. We've also been engaging with startups. I won't sit directly working with them, but yeah. So, it's a very systems driven work that I have, where I'm working on multiple levels.

And in terms of personal, you know, a very personal level, my learning has been immense, because I'm, I've had the opportunity to interact with senior bureaucrats, officers, and really also CEOs of companies who, you know, some of the big global private action organizations, but also at the very micro level. I've also been a part of a project that is working on a waste management solution at a neighborhood level in, you know, in more than India. So, it's, it's a very across, as I said, across multiple levels. You're on the ground as well, you're implementing executing projects, but you also have an understanding of larger policy frameworks. You're also looking at innovation, you're looking at the state machinery, and I mean, governance machinery is, is, is immense. It's intricate and also beautiful in a certain

way. I can only imagine. Yeah, exactly. I just feel like that is something that I would just enjoy so much. And I can see how you're so happy when you share this. And you know, you're passionate for this really shines through. Wow. Before we wrap up here, is there, I want to give you the chance to share anything that you want with just to read all of our listeners. It can be about climate change, but it doesn't have to be. But I just wanted to give you that chance if you have something top of mind. Yeah, I just, something that, you know, you asked me what can the youth do or what gets someone who's trying to work in the spirit of, I would say that just, in your own way, try engaging with climate change and in whatever way possible. And by this, I don't mean that you have to go study or you have to do a master's or anything, but just,

just question it from your perspective. Just understand what is it that you could do. And you know, there are a lot of youth groups that sort of support the sort of engagement in a very constructive manner. And there's solely so much that institutions, public institutions can do for us. At the end of the day, there's also a certain degree of owners that we have as citizens. So I would say engage with climate action on as a citizen, as a professional and just see what is it that you can do. Yeah.

That's, I feel like that's, yeah, if you're going to take away one thing from this, I feel like that is such a fitting thing to take away. So really appreciate you sharing that. And even more importantly, really want to thank you for taking the time today, not only for kind of talking to us and through me, educating, hopefully many out there about exactly what this entire, you know, spiel is about with the whole doomsdaying around conspiracy theories around just climate change and how it's going to end, you know, destroy the world and all that. And it just really helps, I feel like when you talk to somebody as educated, as learned in this field, to come to us and talk to us about, hey, this is why this is important.

This is the work that I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah. Truly, truly blessed to be, you know, given the chance to talk to people such as yourself and, you know, share the wealth of knowledge that you bring to the table. So really appreciate you taking. First, thank you. Thanks, Naman. And this is something that I told you when we were talking over the phone that, you know, a lot of the climate conversation ends up happening within climate bubbles. This is what we need. We need people like you. We need creators like you to mainstream this conversation and to make it more, as it said, not from a doomsday perspective that we're all going to die. I mean, we are facing challenges, but legs approach this more pragmatically, more realistically, and from a solutions point of view, and not from, you know,

blaming and, you know, just, so thanks to you, creators like you who are supporting this in your own way, kudos to you as well. Namath. Thank you. That brings us to the end of that episode with just breathe. Hopefully you all took away as much as I did from that incredible conversation around how easy, simple steps can go such a long way in terms of saving the world and making it a more sustainable place. If you would like to support me, the easiest way to do that is by subscribing to me on YouTube and leaving me up to a five star 81 Spotify or any of your favorite podcast apps. Another way that goes really far is by commenting below any feedback or guest suggestions that you have. Catch you all in the next one. New episodes every Wednesday.