How to Turn a Civic Frustration Into a Viral Product (NammaKasa Bangalore Founder POV) - w/ Jyothish

I'm still dumbfounded. I don't know how to explain it. Jotish is a product designer in Bangalore. A month ago, he posted a side project on LinkedIn. Today, that project has 250,000 users. The first line in LinkedIn, Bangalore has a garbage problem that is a very good hook. He built it on free tiers of various tools, spent zero rupees on marketing. At this point, I spent zero rupees on marketing. And then, the Bangalore government machinery picked it up.

Right now, you can see at least 190+ resort reports and this is from the BSWML Marshals. So, they actively use the Namakasa app to find the garbage spot, clean it and then post a verification of it. And now, investors from across the country want in and he's saying no to all of them. Do you get like a notification if something was like an action was taken or something? I was flooded with thousands and thousands of people asking for, can I fund this project? Is there any way I can help? I'm a developer.

He breaks down the exact hook formula that made his app explode and shares why he refuses to charge a single rupee for it. If you've got something half built on your laptop right now, this is the episode that gets it shipped. Jotish, welcome to the show. Thank you, man. Thank you so much. I want to kick off by sharing the thing that made me find you, which was this now absolutely mega viral Reddit thread. And I know you also went viral across LinkedIn X.

I feel like every other day, even now in LinkedIn, I see just the incredible snowball effect that has happened from you building out Namakasa. So I want to start here, right? What is it like for an average Joe there? I say that that's a product designer, you're going about your life, doing your job and such. You make this thing and then suddenly your front and center of really the internet, at least when it pertains to India. Talk me through that experience. What was that like? Bring us into how that all feels.

Firstly, I'm still dumbfounded. I don't know how to explain it. It just feels, I mean, I was not even keeping count of what was happening as in I was approached by a friend who texted me saying that your Namakasa is blowing up the post that you made. I was like, really? I mean, my expectation was maybe 5000 views or something like that. But then next day, I was working and then I saw my picture saying that, you know, some Bengaluru techie started this.

I was like, what is happening? That is the first question I gave to my mind and I started getting so many calls and at the same time, I was nervous. I was like, like, what am I supposed to do? I was in there is no problem for these things, but at the same time, I think like I spoke to a lot of friends, well-wishers, they gave that kind of a strength to say, I mean, it's okay. I mean, just relax for a bit, just see what's happening and then play your cards right. And then I think, yeah, but honestly, even now, if I think about that day of the whole thing happening, I still wouldn't be able to believe.

So I know this comes up a lot nowadays, especially because of why coding and, you know, agent engineering, making everything so easy in a world where anyone can make anything, the true problem left to solve then becomes one of distribution, right? How do you get folks to use your thing? So in your case, you're almost making it sound like you built a thing that was like a passion project, you care deeply about this problem.

You try to solve it, but then when you were putting it out in the world, I, you probably know this, right? But there's at this point, like thousands of hours of material courses, et cetera, on how to write viral posts around apps when you're trying to launch an app. Is that something you had looked at, were you trying to, you know, hook people with your post and such, or were you literally just trying to be like, Hey guys, I made this check this out.

I have seen a lot of those posts and I have tried something like this in the past. It didn't work out, but in this case, it was something, I was honestly, I built something for myself. And I sent this to my friends just to test it out. And then the, the research group was too less. So I thought maybe let me put it out there on LinkedIn. I'll get more people. So that is the only thing. I didn't do any of those research about, you know, you will go viral or should I do something to catch attention. I didn't do any of those things. It was very natural. It was very organic.

But now that I think about it, I think the first line in LinkedIn, Bangalore has a garbage problem that is a very good hook. So I can probably create my own course, if that is a case. You, I mean, you should write because a lot of the people that have courses actually have no proof to show for their expertise, right? They're just out there being like, follow me, give me money and here's a course, right? But in your case, obviously you've done the work.

So I want to next pull up, you know, what you've made and just kind of have you talk us through some of the decision making here, like how it, this all works. So if I just like go here, I like that this little like loading screen will say allow this time. So talk me through your, I guess, thinking here with this. So obviously we start up with the map of Bangalore itself. So is that like a conscious decision to not have like a landing page that kind of explains what's going on and directly dump the viewer into the heart of the problem, right? Like this is the purpose of this app.

So if I, then you're like inviting them to click around, see what's going on here. So yeah, can you, can you share kind of the vision behind the user journey here, so to speak. Got it. So professionally I'm a product designer and I understand how much on boarding or maybe login registration, all of those things, kills participation. So considering that my agenda here was, I want, I don't want people to learn anything about it. I feel if they're interested enough, they will naturally find ways to learn more about it.

They will click around, they'll go to each and everything. So I feel they shouldn't be any mystery about it. It should feel very simple to use. That is the core idea and philosophy that I carried from the beginning of Namogasa. I wanted the accountability part, not just on authorities, but it should be on us as well. So when you see 4000 reports on a map, you know, you should, you're part of the problem. There is so much. For me, the thing is the red dots just show me that it is disgusting. There is nothing else other than that.

So the idea was to not have logins, not have like, you know, register any of those things. It has to, it had to just directly land them into a map, directly see what's happening. And then there is this big red button right now you're using it on desktop. So you won't see the red button, but if you're on a phone, it will show report garbage. So it's just that, you know, get to action. Just go to click on report garbage and then start reporting, taking pictures.

Yeah, got it. Yeah. And so like, this also looks really complex man. So like when I, you know, zoom into a certain area, I click that. So this is actually showing pictures of the garbage in that place. So is this, where is this coming from? Actually, like, can you maybe share a little bit of behind the scenes in terms of how this works? Because this feels like magic to me. How do you, how have you built this? So how it works is let's say while you're on a evening stroll, you see garbage. And then you just have to type in, and then you click the report garbage button.

And then you take the picture of the garbage and automatically, whatever what you're in, it'll get attached to this image. And then right now from the first version to the current version, I've made couple of changes. So you have to add a landmark has to, just so that you give people who are looking an idea as to where exactly it may be in front of a building that is a very known well known building. And then you just have to add the type of based is it mixed with instruction every just so that, you know, you categorize it and then it makes it easier for resolution. And right now, recent in the recent update, I've added the category as in, is it in an empty plot or is it, you know, take those kind of things.

So it makes it easy for in the back and also to keep all this data cleaner, then it's easy for me to, or not, not for me, sorry, the authority is to really understand where, who should we, who this, who should this the garbage report should be assigned to. So all of these pictures that we see here, they were submitted by like real people for the most part is that, is that correct. That's crazy to that. Yes. That is blowing my mind. I won't even that is just crazy. So, and I'm sure you have this like analytics in your background. Like, do you have a rough number around how many like users you've already had, maybe not even active but total.

Like roughly ballpark. I'm just very curious because this map is full of reports by people. So initially when I released this, I was seeing a lot of numbers and I was running on free tiers for most of the services that I was using. And I was using Vircell to deploy this. And the analytics went beyond the monthly quota and I had to shut it up. And I think for the first, like up when I shut it down, I think for the fourth, four or five days.

There was no data. I had to shut it down. Until then it was four days or so. And there were at least 50,000 unique users. And now I've got it back again. And the number stays at easily to lack 50,000 unique users. I mean, I'll have to give it to the virality of this. Man, so tell me this, right? I guess what I'm thinking about next is, so as you said, I'm on a stroll. I'm aware of this app and obviously of the good intentions that this has. I love that you have, you know, not only just, you know, you upload your thing, but the accountability section here, right? So what's going on behind the scenes so on so forth.

So if I'm a user, right? I guess my question basically that I'm trying to get behind is what is making me necessarily come back to the app. Right. So is do you get like a notification if something was like an action was taken or something or is the point just to document all of the garbage because I understand, obviously, as a person that is making an app, you can't really realistically be expected to, you know, for change here, right?

Because that's a completely different ball game. That's outside of your jurisdiction. So can you talk through the steps after the report has been generated off the garbage? What happens after that? So right now, since this is a web app, there is no way for me to send notifications because users don't have to log in. They don't have to put on numbers. But I feel the reason why people would come back is because they care, right? They, most of them, not just most of them, all of us want to see our city cleaner. They, we want to, you know, walk to a coffee shop without needing to, you know, sidestep garbage.

You always want to be, okay, I think, can I repeat this? Yeah, of course. Go for it. Yeah. You can take it from the top. Yeah. So since this is a web app, there is no way for me to have send notifications to users. There is no login. There is no phone numbers, none of those things. But I feel people would come back because they care about their city. It doesn't matter which part of the country, everybody wants to see their locality clean. So I think that is the hook in itself. The product itself is a, I don't need to do, I mean, honestly, at this point, I've not spent, I've spent zero rupees on marketing.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I have to give it up to all these people because the messages that I get, I was flooded with thousands and thousands of people asking for, you know, can I fund this project? Is there any way I can help? I'm a developer. Can I help you with the development? Can we create an app out of this? It's been overwhelmingly surprising for me that there are so many people out there are not looking for monetary benefits to support this.

Yeah. It's such a care. So there is no need for me to create any hook, the product itself, and the intention is the hook in itself. And so coming to the point, what happens after this? Since this has been just one month, it's a little too early to say anything, but thankfully because of the virality of this, and then, like I said, there's so many publishers, I got in touch with the right people. Right now, you can see at least 190 plus resort reports, and this is from the ESWML Martians.

So, they actively use the Namakasa app to find the garbage spot, clean it, and then post a verification. Wow. So, wait. So how did you get them to use your thing? That is, I feel like, of everything that you've said, that is the craziest part for me so far. Because getting the government or whatever organization to play ball is by far and large, the hardest thing to do, especially in India. So how was, how did you do that?

I like to be cheesy here, but I think it is a citizen power, literally, because there's so much noise about this everywhere. Like, everywhere I go, even now, most of my friends are bro, every time I open LinkedIn, I see your face. The same thing goes to Instagram, and then it's the same thing. I mean, I don't use Facebook, but there's so many posts. My parents keep telling me that I keep seeing your face on Facebook.

I think it is people and the citizens themselves, you know, trying to push this as much as they can, and I still keep getting messages from people saying that, "Man, you shouldn't let the momentum die. We should do something about this. We shouldn't forget about this just like that." Finally, they feel like the power is back to the citizens. I hope the momentum keeps on. And yeah, the Marshall part of it, I think, when it reached the right people who are part of the organization, the authorities, they thought, "Okay, I think this is actually helping them." And honestly, the intention behind creating Namakasa was to provide visibility.

What I felt is, obviously, the organization or the authority, they are in this field for a longer time than I have. But they might not be able to get to every spot like the nook and corner of Bangalore, and Bangalore is huge. So I feel people, I mean, we as people, I think we should be giving them that visibility, like we are the eyes for them saying that, "Hey, there is garbage here, and I'm going to post this here. This is the exact location. Just come in and then please help me clean this."

So that is the intention behind Namakasa. And again, the biggest thing is visibility. I feel this gives that needed power for the people, and at the same time give that kind of a visibility for the authorities. Yeah, I think what I like the most about what you just said is, I feel like often we are just conditioned to think of the authorities, quote unquote, as our enemies. Maybe enemies is a strong word, but just as an incompetent nebula of people that are up to no good, like they're not, they just suck, is what we are almost conditioned to think.

But it doesn't have to be like that. And I really like that you're saying that we're on the same side here, right? They could use help figuring out how to best use their resources in like the most efficient manner. And when you build something that helps them do that, why would they not use it, right? Because they also want to help. It's not like they're evil or something, which again, it's easy for us to think that way. At least I know I'm guilty of, you know, thinking that way for sure.

So I think this is such a powerful notion where, yeah, we are all on the same side. So let's work together. And you've shown that when we do work together, good things can and definitely do happen. Continuing down the thread of what you said around momentum. What is next? Are you considering making it into an actual app? Because I know you said that the ability to send notifications would be pretty cool. Right, because I think it would reinforce that loop that here I submitted a report. 15 days later, I got a resolution that your thing led to removal of this waste from here.

And then maybe we can have leaderboards, right? You can have like a monthly winner or something. I don't know, just like spitballing. So what do you have planned, I guess, if anything at all at this point? Honestly, all of these things are not planned. Things are happening. I'm just trying to address whatever is happening on a daily basis. I wake up in the morning. I see a lot of messages. I think then, okay, this is maybe something I need to do. Going forward for Namakasa, like the plan was actually to not just restrict this to Bangalore. I wanted this to be in every other city.

And I have received, again, thousands of messages saying that can be bring this to Mumbai, can be bring this to Delhi, Chennai, Kolkata, everywhere. So the idea is to get it over there. But I feel for me right now, I need to get enough data. I need to get a better understanding about how I can do this for one city. And then scaling it to other cities wouldn't be much of a hassle after that point. So I'm not sure what, if I would create an app, but I feel the ease of using just a web app is very beautiful in itself. They don't need to go to a Play Store, download, and all those things.

So it's so much easier to just, you know, log in, sorry, just type in Namakasa.in and then you're there. Yeah, that's it. I think I want to keep it as simple as that. And yeah, so hopefully that I can keep the same form going forward as well. I want to also contrast your background and the work you do at your day job versus building this out. So from going through your LinkedIn while researching for this episode. I think most of your work is centered around consumer apps, right? Like the designing you do is built for like B2C market, so to speak.

Now, we know that the civic, civic app industry, I don't know what's like the right term is not quite the same as that, what you're doing at your day job. When you talk through the design decisions that you had to teach yourself or make while building Namakasa because obviously, yeah, as we, you know, sounds like you're agreeing, it's a completely different ballgame. So how did you morph your existing knowledge of product design into making this in a way that clearly as you've demonstrated landed really, really well with the masses.

Yeah, that's actually a very good question. I mean, I've not gotten this question before. So I just want to take a little bit of a moment to answer, but honestly, the design decisions wouldn't change much from B2C. This is exactly the, the consumers are themselves like, I think the spectrum of age or maybe demography changes, but essentially the core philosophy of design remains the same. You just have to make sure it is easily understandable to any kind of user. It doesn't matter tech savvy, non tech savvy.

They will sometimes might have a little bit of a confidence to where I'm supposed to click, what happens if I click here. That is still I'm something that I'm still getting more feedback on. I feel like I've had the privilege of having a conversation with one of the BSWML Marshall. He mentioned that English is not his primary language. So something planning to introduce Karada. So, the, I mean, honestly, I feel it doesn't feel different at all. I do the same thing in my day job. I try to understand what exactly they are missing.

Am I missing something? Are you getting confused somewhere? So you just have to talk to them. I trade, talk to them. I trade. It's a process. So, when I started off the version of the app was at 1 0.1. Now I'm at 1.3. And between that, there has been so many new changes that I have made based on my conversations with different stakeholders. I've spoken to the likes of, you know, people in the age group of my parents. They are not so tech savvy, but they understand tech in a way where they can make payments.

But that is an everyday repetitive task. But a TV, sorry, civic tech tool is kind of a different perspective, because they have to click something and then they have to see, take the picture properly. They can't have, like, if it is shaken or something like that, it gets rejected. So, from a designer perspective, what was different, honestly, again, like I said, it's not too different, but I feel you have to get the accountability part right. You can't mess that up.

Yeah, exactly. There is a high probability that you might assign a specific what to a specific personnel. That might not be a right thing to do. You have to do your research before. You have to do research one to three times before you put people's name and pictures on the accountability board. That is one thing that I would actually did a lot of research on. I want to be very short before I went live. Yeah, so this is so interesting, right? Because in, so just like a random tangent, I guess, I have obviously like tried to dabble a little bit with building, not exactly consumer grade apps, but just like little toy projects that solve very niche, small problems, mostly online, like nothing to do with the real world and such.

The question that I myself think about a lot and also when I talk to other people like me that, you know, are building things trying to get it in front of users. The biggest question is that yes, you want to be fast, right? You don't want to waste too much time sitting around, but there's also a point where, so you mentioned you started with 0.1. I guess, can you talk us through what made you launch 0.1 instead of being like, Hey, let me just add in one more feature or like five more things and then I will launch.

How would you advise somebody that's trying to put something out into the public world or the public domain that this says that you're now ready to launch. Is it something like that? Does that question make sense? No, it makes a lot of sense. I feel that is not a right notion at all. I think what is the best way to get good feedback is just putting it out there. You want people to give you like you shouldn't worry too much about what people might say.

You can just use that as one of the feedback point. I did the same thing. I was always chasing perfection. There is no term as perfection. There is never, you will never end even even now after 1.3.1. I still don't think the product is perfect. So point is put it out there, wait for people to use it, then you'll get actual usable feedback that you can go back and then build on top of. So it's a simple philosophy there. You don't need to worry too much about what people might think. It doesn't matter. Just put it out there.

And I think in my case, what I do is if I have to do something, I tell people first. Then in my head, I'm thinking I've already told them I have to do it now. So I put that kind of a pressure on myself. Otherwise, I just lack or just not do something like that. The same thing with Namakasa as well. I shipped at 0.1. I got to a point where I was happy with the first set of features there was and I thought I'll put it out there.

I thought maybe let me get 10 more people who are actually interested in giving me feedback. I'll use that feedback and then develop the app based on that. But again, now it's more than two, like 50,000 people using it. So you don't know what's going to happen. It's just one idea away from changing your life literally. Yeah, no, I really like a lot about what you said. And honestly, that's a big part of the theme of this show. Exactly.

Just take the jump, just do the thing, put it out and whatever happens happens. I am curious though around that same notion. When you do something like this, and obviously everyone's kind of, and you also reference it yourself, we've all been seeing the insane media coverage, just the stuff that happens from virality and such. I think a big threat that people often wonder about is the connection between that attention really and monetization.

Now, obviously that can look very different based on various contexts for a person that's more like a personal brand. In this case, obviously, it's the value proposition is Namakasa. So, how do you think about monetization? Do you have plans to do that in any way or form? Is that something that you've thought about, or is that still up in the air as of this point? It's still up in the air. I'm thinking of multiple ways. Like I said, there's been a lot of well-wishers who's been asking that, you know, how can we fund this?

But I don't know. I didn't feel like it. I think I'm going to take it forward as much as I can. After some point, I might have to rely on funds, but as of now, it's pretty sorted. But I think this is something that the authorities has to take it up. This is a solution for them. And I don't think I'll ever charge citizens. If you start charging them, they will feel like a service. They already paid all the taxes and everything. They shouldn't be one more tax.

So, considering that, I hope something comes up from the government side. But again, there's a lot of thoughts as to how I should plan this. Yeah, so that makes sense that I would agree, especially with something like this. I just don't think it's a good idea, right? It feels like a no-brainer to not monetize the app. But what about monetizing you though, right? You're allowed to monetize. So is that something that you've thought about to like, so to speak, cash in on all of the attention that you've been getting online and offline?

And yeah, because that's the thing, right? And I get this question all the time with people and such. Like, it is like, we all know we live in an attention economy. We get all of that. It's like overused to death at this point. But then how do you convert that into tangible, maybe not even tangible, but even net worth? Is that something that you've thought about at least now that you're front and center of this media storm that has been going on? Or do you just not care that much about that type of thing?

See, I was never the kind of person who wanted this kind of attention. Like, I remember when this thing was happening, I was freaking out. Like, I have to be in front of cameras now. I have to start making videos. I hate you to do all those things. I prefer being behind the camera. I'm a photographer myself. I like being behind the camera, take pictures, and then we're done with it. So, net worth, I honestly haven't thought about it as in the last one month since the release. The focus was just to improve the app as much as I can.

Involve as many stakeholders as possible. Create the best product that doesn't break. And make sure that hopefully people see my thought process and then I get more projects. But not through Namakasa. I think Namakasa will remain as a citizen-led movement and keep it at that. But people do think that my idea is making sense or in any way that I can contribute to their projects, then why not? Yeah, no, I like that. And I think I appreciate that you're able to keep your head up. Despite all of this, it's easy to get swayed and start feeling like having a God complex or something.

I probably would at least get hit by that a little bit. Just if I were to imagine myself in your shoes. So, I think it's really refreshing to hear you say that. It is what it is. This doesn't define you. It's just one of the many things that you have built. You will be building more things in the future. And so, I really think there's almost something inspirational about not calling this your magnum opus. This is it. I have peaked here.

And I think it shows a lot of maturity and strength to say that. Final question here before I let you go from the POV of a product designer for all of the designers slash, you know, pseudo designers with just using web coding tools, because everybody has to be a designer now. It's not a choice, right? What is your one piece of advice in terms of one thing, or it can be like a component. It can be anything, right? That everybody should try building out in order to actually become a better designer overall, you know, like this is you build this thing. And through that experience, you learn the most possible things you can learn about product design.

I know it's kind of a hard question and it's like kind of loaded. So feel free to take take some time, but this is something I really wanted to ask you. Understand. I think in the, in the era of AI tools, it's there, there was a lot of bottleneck before, as in if I had to build something like this just not even years, just months before. I had to think about like, which engineer should I contact or what should I design this or there's so many questions.

All those things are gone. I feel the, those kind of excuses are long past us. The only thing is get your idea right. I think validate it with the people that you have, and that is a real product design process. You find a problem, you go ask other people the right stakeholders, find the answers for them and then just build. I would say one of the biggest advice I would give them is just to build. Like don't think too much about will this be something that people will care about. No, don't worry about it.

Things will happen, but if you keep building, like if you look at my LinkedIn, this is not the first thing that I build. There was a lot of other things that I tried. I tried plugins. I tried building an app from, I mean, I want a cafe. So I build nice something for my cafe as well. So I just tried to, my focus was just like, what problem statement can I pick that I can start building on? And I didn't think too much about the outcome of it. I just thought about like, there is a problem and this is really bothering me.

I'd rather go and purchase a subscription. Let me just build it and see and understand the nuances of building something like this. Like if I had shied away from not building Namakas or putting it out there, I don't think the amount of knowledge that I have received right now, we're talking to people like getting on podcasts like this and discussing things like this. I don't think it would have been possible. I feel we truly underestimate the power of having an idea.

And we'll just take that idea, start building something, put it out there, let people trash it, but take that trash and probably build Namakas up on it. I love that. Way to bring it about full circle. That was very nicely done. So, Jotish, I like to, at the end of every conversation, I like to share with my guest and the listeners, my thing that I'm taking away in terms of just in my daily life and we'll try to keep it in my head and apply.

And I think for you, the biggest thing that comes to mind for me is your constant notion of like the next thing you're building, you don't have to bet your entire house on it, right? It's okay to experiment. It's okay to iterate. Just go build things without worrying too much about anything really. Get it out there. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, you still get to learn from it, right? And I think it's a notion that we hear about so often, but I think it's so underrated.

I feel like, and I'm guilty of this too. I have definitely stopped myself from doing things just because I feel like, oh, that's cringe, or I'm going to look like a try hard or a poser, all of these funny words that are baked into our vocabulary. Stop us from doing things when they really shouldn't. And like, so that's on the one end on the other end. I really like that. Throughout this conversation, nothing you've said has given me the notion that like you're about to rest on your laurels, you know, you're about to just chill out, hang out your boots, just, you know, continue to coast.

You have plans to continue doing other things, making this bigger like you are not stopping. And I think that is really cool. And, you know, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk through your experiences here today with me and our listeners. So truly, this has been such a delight. Thank you so so much for taking the time. Thank you so much. I had a good time talking about the experiences. I just hope I have inspired people. I hope they also build. And, you know, I think I hope you can put my socials.

Yeah, and actually on that note, if if somebody wants to reach out to you, what's the best place I'll be linking your LinkedIn in the show notes. Is that what you're what you prefer to have people reach out. I have Instagram. I have access. Doesn't matter. I mean, I just want to see even I take my email as well. Just put whatever it is. I would love to discuss. I'd like to see what other people are building. And then, you know, brainstorm over things that are maybe even be able to be part of what they're doing. I'd be really happy to do something like that.

Amazing. Yep. I'll be linking all of those for anybody. Any of our listeners wanting to get in touch. Please feel free to do so awesome man. I will catch you next time.