How To Start A News App Startup (& Fix Everything That's Broken About Journalism in 2025) - w/ Anugrah

I like to think of broad as an experiment in beggar journalism. It's a very simple business model that we have. Every day you get one highquality story from us which could be across a range of topics and our USP is that the article or the story that you get from would be very friendly and accessible. I'm Nam Pande and in this episode feature not expert is Anugra Agnihotri. Anugurra is the founder of dot which as you'll see is a very fresh and unique take on online journalism. Anugurra quit his job as a consultant at BCG after his MBA to dive into his founder journey full-time.

dive into his founder journey full-time. I don't know if I'm supposed to say this, but a lot of the gown work happened when I was still at BCG. You called out the all eyes on Rafa movement on social media because probably everybody and their grandma has heard of that. You have to choose between who is reading my news versus who is paying for my news. They'll obviously choose the latter.

They'll obviously choose the latter. From Dave and we were very clear that the person who is consuming that news is the one who will pay for it. Do you actually think news can ever truly be completely unbiased? Experts are doing more harm than good. They usually gatekeep their domain. We go over everything that goes into launching and scaling an internet news company. The business model, operations, pricing, marketing. Indeed, Anugra was extremely generous in terms of being completely transparent about the good, the bad and the ugly bits of his journey. I think it's just that artificial divide that we have created that Hindi speaking audience is not smart enough. In line with our theme of learning from somebody just two steps ahead instead of an expert, my goal with this episode is to

expert, my goal with this episode is to highlight what it takes to start a news company without any formal background in journalism. This is the Ready Set Sedu podcast and subscribe for weekly episodes featuring not experts. And now without any further ado, here's Anugra. Welcome to the Ready Set Do podcast where we learn from journeys of not experts who are just two steps ahead of us. Anugra, welcome. Thank you Nan.

us. Anugra, welcome. Thank you Nan. Thanks for having me. So excited to dive in here. Um, let's kick off with what is now, you know, a little bit of a tradition on this podcast. What is your most controversial opinion/h hot take around the, you know, we'll just say news media industry. Leave it intentionally open-ended for now. Okay. So, you're starting with a tough one. I like this is just the best days to start, you know, immediately shocks people into um, you know, being present.

people into um, you know, being present. Not that you weren't already present but yeah so honestly nan I think dot is in a space where all of us have at least some vague idea about what is wrong with news. So if I I think the controversial take would be if I say news media is doing what they expected to do. Um so if you ask me I think one major area which is problematic is the content itself.

is problematic is the content itself. Okay. uh which is the more apparent or the obvious mistakes or the failings that we see of media. So stuff like uh news being biased, being sensationalist, uh it having a lot of clickbaits etc. So all of these are the most more obvious uh symptoms that you see. Uh but the bigger problem is uh the cause of these problems which is the business model itself. Right? I think a lot of us do not appreciate that uh these surface level problems they are stemming from something much deeper right and just to clarify that's just the fact that this is a business like this business exists to make money and if you if they don't

to make money and if you if they don't get enough clicks that means less less revenue and therefore bad. So they're not optimizing for telling the truth anymore. They're just optimizing for clicks at this point. Absolutely. Absolutely. So news apps are less about news. They are more about engagement now which is coming from the business model that you just mentioned. They're optimizing for clicks. They're optimizing for views. There's nothing wrong with building a sustainable viable business. It is just that when the interests of the business is not aligned with the interest of the users uh then the problem arises. So we'll be diving into how do tackles that problem in just a bit here. But before we get there, do you want to share with our listeners your version obviously of what dot is

your version obviously of what dot is and why it exists? Sure. So I like to think of dot as an experiment in better journalism. I know it's a very loaded uh definition. I'll explain what I like it. So we are trying to change the way people uh consume news and more importantly the way news is produced by businesses. Okay. uh but to give you a very simple explanation dot is trying to make it easier for us to understand the wild wonderful world around us Icema and the way we do it is very simple frankly it's a very simple business model that we have uh every day you get one highquality story from us which could be across a range of topics it could be around politics business economy sports

around politics business economy sports science technology culture it could be anything that is relevant to you Mhm. Right. Uh and our USB is that uh the article or the story that you get from us would be very friendly and accessible. One of the findings that I got when I started out do when I did initial market research, I realized that not everybody knows everything about everything. You it's it's not possible for everybody to know everything. But news or traditional news media expects you to have that background or that context when they write something.

context when they write something. Correct. So I give you the example of the story that went out today. Uh we wrote about Russia Ukraine war and news outlets they expect you to know what the Soviet Union is. Uh they expect you to know why it failed, why it fell. They expect you to know what NATO is and then but I I don't think that is a very uh reasonable expectation. I agree. Yeah.

reasonable expectation. I agree. Yeah. Right. And a lot of folks are uh turned off when they read an article like this simply for the reason that they had no background information. And honestly, it's not their fault for not liking news. And I love to give this uh metaphor a lot, this analogy of using uh news as food for the mind. So just like how we all need a well balanced diet, it's very important for everybody to consume a bit of everything in terms of news. Uh so if you don't like lo key, the equivalent could be not liking politics. For example, it is still important for you to consume political news. The onus lies on news makers like me to make sure that we dish out a very

me to make sure that we dish out a very palatable and a tasty preparation of loy. That's very fascinating. And one quick followup on that is so you mentioned you have one story per day across various topics. So is that so you mean today if I open the app I'll find just one news for politics just one for maybe um world affairs maybe one for media is it like that or you'll find one story per day which could be across a range of topics but for that day there is just one news. Uh and I'll just uh take a minute to explain why we chose that model. Yeah I was just going to ask that. Yeah. Uh I think not more than four to five big incidents happen uh in a week that require your undivided

a week that require your undivided attention. Anything beyond that is just fluff. Uh traditional media or even your TV channels or newspapers they are incentivized to keep running something 24/7 to make sure that they fill all pages of the newspaper. Yeah. But in our case that is not the case. We would much rather have you spend 5 minutes and understand one story fully rather than you uh spending just a minute on 20 stories but not understanding anything about. So you know that it's funny you mentioned that because that reminds me of this very famous at least famous in my circles quote by um Nawal Ravi Kant.

my circles quote by um Nawal Ravi Kant. He said um actually it's just a tweet one of his many many tweets. Are you familiar by chance with his work? Yes, I've read his. Okay. Okay. You probably know this. Yeah. Yeah. So you'll probably know this but uh he says that the job of the media is to make the world's problems your problem which is it sound like what you were kind of saying but on the flip side of that the thing that gives me a little bit of pause is that if that is how this game is structured then do you see that as a potential problem for DOT in the sense that you are not trying to make all of the world's problems your readers

the world's problems your readers problems But apparently that is like a success formula when it comes to that. So I guess there's a trade-off there, right? So I'm just wondering how you balance that trade. I mean honestly uh I mean I don't think the entire world's problem is your problem. You as the media is to try to do that is the whole Yeah. Yeah. trying to do that. But let me again try to think from the perspective of a consumer of news.

perspective of a consumer of news. That's a nan you want to consume news. Yeah. Uh is it relevant for you to understand what is currently happening in Somalia? Maybe not probably unless it is like a very big event. Uh or would you care about what just happened in Bopal today? You might not. I didn't even know something happened. So, so the point is when I uh step aside and when I try to look at this problem from the perspective of the news consumer rather than the news producer, the answer that I got is uh hey, I just want to understand what is happening that is relevant to me. Of course, that is debatable. I have to take a judgment call as to what is relevant for most of

call as to what is relevant for most of my readers. That is a question that I can tackle later. Uh but then is it important for me to dish out everything that is happening in the world? Maybe not. True. Yeah. It just leads to more anxiety and doesn't actually even solve anything. You just feel so overwhelmed at the end of it. You're like I mean I mean we still have to have the monkey brain with us. Yeah. There's only so much that we can fit into it. True. And much of the news today is just designed to sadden you, shock you, surprise you rather than to inform you. And I I always like to say that uh the one emotion that I want to leave my readers with at the end of every story is awe.

with at the end of every story is awe. It's not uh shock or anything else. It is awe. It's just even when we write about something that is very grim like war uh rather than focus focusing on the casualties we'll focus more upon why is it happening what is the uh bigger reason behind it right that's very fascinating yeah definitely so many you know layers uh just over there to for us to unpack but just to take a step back can you uh do you mind walking us kind of through your journey just not with dot but up until the moment you decided to start dot. Um I know you went to I mean I'll let you say like complete it but just for broadstrokes for our listeners I know you have an MBA and

listeners I know you have an MBA and then I know you were a consultant at BCG. So really curious to hear from you how you started there and kind of ended up uh you know with this type which is it just feels kind of far removed from consulting but maybe it is a rather unconventional choice that I actually get that a lot. So like you mentioned I was working with BCG for close to and a half three years and I decided to take the plunge and start this full-time and before that where did you get your MBA sorry just I studied at XLR jump. Okay awesome got it nice. Uh and even before that I worked as a software developer and even before that I completed my engineering in computer science. So

engineering in computer science. So again none of this experience is close to what I'm doing now. Yeah. Uh right. So I chose to take this plunge into entrepreneurship. Uh there are two parts to it. First is why did I leave BCG and why did I become a journalist? Answering the first one is very straightforward. I had reached a point in my career where I felt that um I mean it's good to advise people consult them but it's it's better to build something yourself. And I wanted to be hands-on and do something of my own. Um and that is when I decided to make this switch. I know it's an unconventional choice in the sense that BCG pays you well. Yeah. It sets you up

BCG pays you well. Yeah. It sets you up for a very good career. Uh but then I mean like I said I'd reached that point where I had to make that lunch. Uh and then the second part is the more interesting part especially which would interest our listeners is why did a guy enter a field like journalism right? Uh and the the answer is journalism is not rocket science. It's quite similar to um I I mean I was a quizzer. I used to love reading a lot. I used to love collecting a lot of trivia. I was a coder. So I love building a product. I thought it was a very good mix of the two things and that is what led me to this. Yeah. And and this particular

this. Yeah. And and this particular problem had been ailing me for over a decade. Wow. Really? Yeah. uh it it had and seeing that this problem was not being adequately fixed by anybody I thought why not uh do this. Yeah. So I I was just taking a moment there to um you know know understand what you just said there. So I guess what was your approach like when it came to the actual building of this?

it came to the actual building of this? So you have your value proposition very clearly defined. No one's doing that. I kind of had a similar journey with this podcast, but obviously that is way easier to do than to, you know, actually have an app that needs to have a certain process that needs to have, you know, stories going out every day. So, can you walk me through just kind of your journey with materializing this, you know, great wonderful idea that only existed in your brain up until that point? Yeah. So, I think the main focus of dot is the one story that we write every day. Everything else is just supplementary. It just helps it out.

supplementary. It just helps it out. Yeah. The app and website, it's good to have. have. It legitimizes the business so to speak. Uh but frankly, I would say almost 80 to 90% of my day goes into writing the story. Uh a lot of the ground work for app was done uh while I was still working. I don't know if I'm supposed to say this, but a lot of the ground work happened when I was still at BCG. Um, and then it's mostly on an autopilot mode now. Once in a while I have to step in for some bug fixes. Uh, but then the star of the show is the story. Spend most of my time just reading about stuff, researching, writing, tweaking,

stuff, researching, writing, tweaking, making multiple drafts, talking to a lot of experts, getting their opinion before the entire story goes out. And so did like so you actually built the app yourself or did you have kind of a small team that you out outsourced that part or you were just that hands-on that you were just able to build it by yourself? I I did build it by myself. Uh and I know I use the term we a lot but there is no team. It's a solopreneur uh endeavor that we have taken on. So yes, I did build the app myself and even now for most of the writing and researching stuff, it is mostly me. We do have a few

stuff, it is mostly me. We do have a few interns who help out. Then there's a matter of experts, people that I reach out to. Yeah. Uh for let's say if I'm writing a story on a legal case, I have a lawyer friend whom I reach out to to understand the nuances and the jargon that they use. Yeah, that's very interesting because when I was looking at uh when I first found came across your page on LinkedIn and such, all of your branding I I must say definitely stood out to me. it it looked like I don't know h how you're you're able to do that stuff just like you know by yourself because it was really impressive and it's something that's been on top of my mind of late where

been on top of my mind of late where I've been trying I've just kind of gotten obsessed a little bit with really good branding you know like fonts that work really well together um color palettes etc logos you name it right and it just like dot entire kind of branding it's so fresh seems so clean um It it kind of really sucked. Maybe I I can flash it up. Uh do you have can you tell me the website so I can like quickly, you know, show throw it up here for our listeners to see as well. Do you want me to put it uh on the chat? Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, that works. I just wanted to Yeah. quickly show people what I'm talking about. So, so it is what do

talking about. So, so it is what do Yeah. And as I show this, if you if you don't mind talking through kind of Yeah. Like this particular graphic here, it's like I don't know. It just looks so clean to me. Um, and actually specifically if I go browse stories like it it's I don't know you you get what I'm saying though, right? Want me to sign in? But yeah, how how did all of this come to be? I guess like all of this really cool looking, you know, template. I I know the I think the word that you're looking for, nan is minimalist, right? Yeah, and honestly it's I think it's also because it was just one person working on it. So that is how it came

working on it. So that is how it came out to be minimalist. But also it is a very conscious choice of not keeping it cluttered. cluttered. Uh I think we are so used to being overstimulated by so many animations and flashy things on your screen that uh minimalist minimalism is going out of fashion. True. Uh yeah. So again it was a very conscious choice of keeping it things keeping things that way. Uh and I think the our technology or our platform or the user experience is one big differentiator from traditional media.

differentiator from traditional media. Exactly. Yes. That's exactly the core point here. Yep. Mhm. So let's say you go to any website like the Hindu money control India today whatever website that you're using even if it is a very wellressearched well-meaning article that is out there you would be distracted by uh a popup in the corner one click baity headline somewhere else something flashy comes up on the middle of the screen so it's very difficult to take something seriously once you come across an experience like so from day one we were very clear that our experience needs to be uh it should feel like an extension of what we are writing should feel seamless that way. Yeah. Um and frankly throughout the app and the website there are numerous small features that we have sprinkled that

features that we have sprinkled that bring out this humane experience side of our offering. I'll give you a few examples. Yeah. Uh so you just flashed the signup screen for me. Uh uh yeah I can pull it back up one sec. So that is the first thing that somebody sees when they come on our app or website. And if you notice there's a small call out over there. You just click on any of the uh cards are. Yeah. So if you notice there's a call out which says why is a phone number required. Yeah. So we go into details and tell you why uh we need your phone number in the first place.

your phone number in the first place. And for people who are geeks and nerds who are watching this, they would uh oneway hash. Yeah. Yeah. They'll appreciate that we're using something known as a oneway hash. Yeah. Which means which means that we take your phone number and convert it into a unique code and then we use this unique code to identify you without having to store your phone number with us. Right. Which means even if we wanted to we could not sell your number or spam it.

could not sell your number or spam it. Correct. Yeah. I these are these are tiny things that we have done. the matter. No, for sure. And I love how before signing up, you also have a way to way of understanding uh kind of what a few articles even sign up and then right before on on that screen you would see that there's something for terms and service and privacy policy. Yeah. That is usually that is something that people just overlook. True. True. Yeah.

people just overlook. True. True. Yeah. For sure. company like DOT which is priding on making things simpler and easier to explain. We started with our own privacy policy and terms of service. So if you go to that page you will see that uh stuff is very simply explained. We are using TLDDRS. We using bullet points uh for you to understand what data we collect from you. What is it that you can expect from us and what is it that we expect from you?

it that we expect from you? You mean this part? Sorry where was the that part the TLDDR? I think it comes right below the send OTP button. You could just click anywhere. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Terms of service. Yeah. Mhm. I see. No, I mean this is really cool. And that is a very good example that you picked. If you could just go back to that infograph, right? So again, I tend to think from the point of view of a consumer and I myself am I'm I'm a consumer of this app. So I try to answer all the intrusive thoughts and the questions that I have in my hike. So one question is why is West Bank called West Bank when it is in the east? Something like what happens with West Pang? So

like what happens with West Pang? So there's an explanation for it right above this infographic or something like hey I've heard of Bethlehem. Isn't this the place which is uh the birthplace of Jesus? So where does it lie on the map? I also like how you called out because of Rafa. You called out it was the all eyes on Rafa movement on social media because probably everybody and their grandma by at this point has heard of that. Yeah. Right. So that was also a really neat touch right there. And so did you just teach yourself this? Like that part is the other really cool part of this for me. Like this all of this graphic kind of design, these arrows. Um like all of it. And I know there's more

like all of it. And I know there's more stuff here. Like this one is this one's even more detailed. So do you have a background in this? How are you making these? Like I'm just blown away. I mean my background is in engineering and MBA. I agree. I know I am not an engine. They're all worth going on. You have to teach yourself all of this. But frankly, we are in an age where there are so many free tools available that you can learn all of this yourself.

you can learn all of this yourself. Yeah, it's a good you are on this podcast tool called Riverside. Mhm. I mean I'm sure that you are not a professional audio mixer or whatever is the term for it but you taught yourself how to operate the software. No, it's a good point and like the the the reason that that caught my attention further was you know just when you do this type of stuff you have to make thumbnails on YouTube and you can have the greatest video ever made by humankind and if your thumbnail sucks it will not get views.

thumbnail sucks it will not get views. It's just the reality of it. So yeah. So I that is one reason why we have our own platform n was we don't want to play the game where you have to try to game the uh algorithm we have to come up on the top so that is why we absolutely we do not use substack or we do not use medium we use our own platform so it gives us one it gives us the independence to write whatever we want you know it will not be taken down although we are not into investigative journalism and we do

into investigative journalism and we do not write stuff that is very controversial It's always good to have your own platform and the other thing is that you can uh you are not bounded by the algorithms or the the way the social media work is very at the mercy of any algorithms for sure and I want to get into marketing in just a little bit here but before that I feel like we have just a little bit you know bigger fish to fry which is that do you like do you actually think news can ever truly truly be completely unbiased. I mean clearly you do right but can you confirm for me?

you do right but can you confirm for me? No honestly on the I don't I don't feel it. Okay interesting. Yeah I I think they're not asking the right question. The question is not is it biased or is it unbiased frankly any news outlet will put will push out something that is biased. It's just the degree of biasness will vary. So, so there is one kind of biasness which is uh I would say a more conscious form or a more blatant form of biasness where you have a propaganda or an agenda to push onto your readers.

an agenda to push onto your readers. Yeah. The other is a more subtle or unconscious or subconscious form of biasness which creeps up because we are all born in different ways and we are all brought up in different all we are all brought up in different ways. My upbringing has some influence on what I think about the world. So rather than trying to hide that biasness, I would rather uh reveal my biases and let the readers know where I'm coming from. So how do you do that exactly? So one big part of it is our business model. A business model accounts for the first kind of biasness to not there. Uh and let me go back to what I began with talking about uh uh the interests of the reader not matching

the interests of the reader not matching with the interest of the business. It's a very straightforward logic. Journalists like me, we need to earn a living. So at the end of the day, somebody needs to pay for the news. If it is not you who is the consumer or the reader of the news, uh somebody else will step in and that somebody else is most likely going to be a sponsor or an advertiser. Yeah. And that will put me in this difficult situation where I have to prioritize their interests over your interest. Makes sense. If I have to choose choose between my news, I'll obviously choose the latter. So from day one, we were very clear that the person who is reading or listening to our news is the one who will pay for it. Just digressing

one who will pay for it. Just digressing for a bit. I said the word listening because we also have audio narrations. Yeah. No. Yeah. Which is really cool. Yeah. No, that's awesome. But yeah, sorry. Go ahead. So it is a very clear standpoint that you have taken that we will not show ads the the blatant outright ads as well as the more hidden ads or sponsored posts. We never show them really. Uh I mean just go back and think of the times when you were in school. Think of the time assume that you were flipping through your history book and uh your teacher just explained something about exploitation and slavery. And as you flip through the pages the on the next page you see a full page ad about fast fashion or

full page ad about fast fashion or diamond industry or some industry which is prone to uh exploiting the workers. Yeah. How seriously would you take that book or that lesson? It's a very good point. Yeah. So if we do not accept it in our textbooks why have we normalized accepting it in our news? But then the other side is you need to keep it truly affordable otherwise people are not going to pay for it. Uh so for now we charge 59 rupees per month which turns out to be a rupee or two every day. Uh I mean that feels very very reasonable to me. Yeah. And then we have a generous 1 month free trial for you to understand

month free trial for you to understand our principles, our way and our brand of journalism before you decide to uh take the plunge and come into it full-time. Makes sense. So I want to hone into what you said about that you're being upfront with your viewers/ listeners that you do have a bias. So I guess how do you account for that? So say I I'm your newest you know subscriber. I go and I you know start my free trial with the full um expectation to you know kind of continue all the way. I really like your product. I'm sold. When it is when is it that I'm actually that when is it that I'm actually exposed to the bias that you have inherently? Is there is that something that you call out specifically or is

that you call out specifically or is that just something that's implied? I don't call it out specifically. Uh it is implied and it does come across if you are a very keen reader you would see that but then I force myself to look at things from a different perspective. I'll give you an example. Yeah, an example would be wonderful here. Yeah. Uh so last week we wrote a story upon uh Trump's latest executive order in which he forbid transgender players from participating in women's sports.

participating in women's sports. Correct. Yes, I did see that. Yeah. And a lot of us we have inherent biases towards uh people from the LGBTQ. It could be either you could be on either side of the spectrum. You could be pro, you could be against. Uh and I also have some bias which might have come across in the story. So what I did is I uh at Excel we had a committee tried at Excel.

Excel we had a committee tried at Excel. So I reached out to 10 folks over there. I uh asked them to go through the article and point out where I have ured or things that I have uh subconsciously or unconsciously made a mistake and then I made amends. So for example a lot of us including me I mean I'm guilty of this. We we do not understand the difference between sex and gender. These are two different terms, right? Even for those who understand, they might not understand the nuances between transgender and interex. These are two different terms. Yep. So a lot of bias it does creep up.

Yep. So a lot of bias it does creep up. The only thing is uh one is your business model holds you in check and then the other thing is you go out of the way and try to make it as neutral or as inclusive of all perspectives as possible. That's very interesting actually and I'm so glad I brought this up because it almost feels like you have in a way I don't know if this is the right word but almost democ democraticized news publishing you know because when somebody reads that article it's not just your views it's also the other 10 people that you had it reviewed by and I'm obviously hoping and I'm pretty sure you would have chosen I don't know if you did that intentionally but hopefully some of them had you know

but hopefully some of them had you know views across the spectrum of the you know the political does happen otherwise the whole that you mentioned about democratizing democratizing because frankly we are not there I wouldn't pat my back and I would say we are there oh yeah because it's quite obvious to me that collectively all the readers of dot know more than me individually I might know more them more I might know more than what they know about one particular topic but collectively they would definitely know more than me So how do I involve them into the process of creating the story in the first place and then secondly afterwards how do I how do they hold me accountable or responsible for what I've

accountable or responsible for what I've written. Yeah. So honestly I am not entirely there. One way in which we how uh one way of doing it is uh trying to get feedback as quickly as possible. Right. So at the end of every story we have uh there's a thumbs up thumbs down button in which you can simulate. Oh, it said put it on my wall. I thought that was really funny. Yeah. So, so that phrase actually changes every day. Oh, interesting. And that's because we do not want you to have blind spots and I mean you we don't want you to start missing out on that or you trying to just cut that off. So, there is a different term every day so that you're forced to look at it. Okay, that's so

forced to look at it. Okay, that's so cool. And once you tap on that, let's say you tap on the thumbs down button, there are few pre-filled tags for you to select from. So you can pick up things like uh I didn't like the length, it was too lengthy for me, it was too short, the topic was not relevant, you were biased, it was boring, stuff like that. I see. So that is one tiny way in which I get feedback from readers. But then again, still a long way to go. Do you eventually have plans of converting some of your readers that are interested in this type of thing into your I don't know what's the word but council you know news council if that makes sense like is that something you've thought

like is that something you've thought about or does it not make sense at all? I've actually thought a lot about this problem. We also working with uh an IT Vangal. There's a student club over there uh and they're trying to solve this problem. They're helping me out with this. How do we uh democratize media more? Now the problem with the suggestion that you gave is it creates two groups. Interesting. there is a group of the counselors who supposedly have more knowledge or more say in uh creating the story versus the consumers who are not part of and still I see it's a good point. Yeah. And I mean I don't know if that is the right solution or not because democracy has its own problems right I mean just because

problems right I mean just because everybody gets to vote does not mean that they're making the right educated choice. I think it was Socrates who said that uh voting is a skill. It's not a right. Yeah. He also said not everybody should get to vote. Not everybody should get to I mean I I am not saying anything for or against it. I'll refrain. Yeah.

for or against it. I'll refrain. Yeah. No, that was replied. No, I'm just Yeah, but not everybody is qualified to talk about new just so I understand the the ethics and principles of this is still that for the user they are still being fed news that is not meant to be curated by any sponsors. It's the truth or at least it's in in practice it's trying to be the closest version of the truth.

be the closest version of the truth. Would you kind of agree with that assessment in general? I'll say it's closer to facts rather than using the word truth. Truth is a very loaded term. Frankly, there is your version of truth. There could be my version of the truth. And truth is very subtle. Could be layered. It could be evolving. And so I'll refrain from using the word truth. But I try to go as close as to the source of truth which shows up in the way I research. So one way is to let's if you're talking about a scandal or something has happened in business one way is to go to the company's website and look at the statement that they have put out or or or if you're talking about geopolitics or you're talking about

geopolitics or you're talking about politics or uh a political party go to their website and look at a statement that they have put out. Look at their press conference. that is being close to the source of truth. One degree uh less connected to the source of truth is going to news agencies like ANI or Realtors. Yeah. And then if you go another degree farther away, you end up with YouTube channels or newspapers and news channels. Yeah. So by that time it tends to become a game of Chinese whispers. So something else was sent but something else was heard and passed on.

something else was heard and passed on. Yeah. I was originally going to ask you to help, you know, untangle for me the difference between truth and fact, but when you said press conference, that made it immediately clear because I feel like press conferences are definitely not worried about telling the truth. You're right. Like it's just a way of usually for the most part if there is a scandal, it's what they want to put out there which probably has nothing to do with the truth. Right. Absolutely. And that is where you have to use your own ex intelligence to think of it. I'll give you another example. Um we all know about the kum mea that is happening in priagraj. Uh a lot of newspapers both international and Indian. They claim

international and Indian. They claim that this edition is a special edition. It's happening once in 144 years. Right. Cuz mahakum that's why it's called the mahakum. Yeah. So it happens after 12 cycles of 12 years. This is the uh and I didn't take it as at face value. I decided to uh just do some simple maths calculations. If you go through uh some older newspaper clipping or if you even go through some news websites, they'll tell you that even the 2013 edition was a special once in 144 year edition. If you go back, even the 2001 edition is claimed to be the special edition. I see. Yeah, I dug up an a government documentary which claims that I think the 1882 uh edition was the special once in a once in 144 edition. I see. So to your

once in 144 edition. I see. So to your point just because somebody is claiming this as facts even if it is coming from a press conference or from a press release does not mean that it is the truth or it is the right fact. It could be misleading. So you have to use your own judgment at times. Yeah. No, that's very interesting and I don't think I would have ever stopped to consider that truth and fact could be two different things. So definitely learned something new today. U moving forward definitely wanted to you know pick your brain about your actual writing process. So, as I'm sure you're aware, writing what like for example the article that I just pulled up on like the Israel stuff, it it's very hard to actually write anything

very hard to actually write anything that is engaging to read and that you know people can enjoy reading whether or not it's in the context of a news article, it can be you know like a LinkedIn post, it can be your caption on your whatever post on Instagram, right? Writing is very hard. So I'm looking for any maybe resources that help you in trying to become a good writer or maybe yeah just trying to understand how you honed your writing skills after you know all the research was done you have all the facts now it's time to pen it down on paper what's your process like for that piece just give me a second I'm just thinking about this yeah sorry I know this was not no it's a good question I want to give a very good answer I don't want to blabber Please take your time. Yeah. Yeah. I my

take your time. Yeah. Yeah. I my favorite author is Ruskin Bond. The way he writes is it's so effortless. It's so simple. Uh it almost makes you feel like writing is a very simple thing as opposed to reading I don't know any Blitin or uh Jordan you know any of them like they write English in a more convoluted way right? But I love Ruskinbond for his simplicity and and I think I tried to embibe his style of writing into the way I write. Uh and and we have already discussed this before but I love to write by the side. Uh I mean most of our viewers would not know that I love writing short stories and that's so cool. As far away from journalism as you would imagine right about all of your interests are at like just the opposite

interests are at like just the opposite ends of every spectrum. It is. It is I write short stories about horror, supernatural supernatural uh so it's very far from what I write uh for a living now. But then the principles remain largely the same. I want to make it as simple as possible. Take away all the fluff that is there. leave you with words that are so simple, so effortless that it's very easy for you to consume because no reader tells me, "Hey, I wish this was a bit more difficult to understand." Nobody says that. Every wants things to be as simple as possible, which means you have to keep it very engaging, very flowing. Uh you need to throw in a few jokes or a bit of humor.

humor. Even when dealing with such difficult topics which just that feels like such a difficult skill to you know um actually exercise cuz you talked about war here like this stuff is serious but yet you still kind of have to not lose the the viewer which is yeah it's such an interesting problem to solve in my it is it is I mean and it is a very underrated skill uh especially with the rise of chat GPT and the likes Um it's very easy to ask OpenAI or charge to write everything for you. Yeah, some might say that writing is a dying skill with the rise of uh Genai, but I mean I have a very different opinion to that. Do you feel tempted sometimes to use AI or not really? I use it at the final step and

really? I use it at the final step and we are very open about it. you have written it. Just do spell check and stuff like that. Do spell check just to make sure that uh there are no grammar mistakes to make sure that the tone can be perhaps evened out if required. But the first draft and the second draft is always written by hand. It's written interesting by a human. It's very easy to pick out sentences that are written by uh J. It's very easy. I I agree.

by uh J. It's very easy. I I agree. Yeah. It just feels so lifeless and it's just the most dull, the most draft gray sentence you've ever read for the most part. I know now there's some AI tools that you can circumvent that a little bit. Like you can upload all of your writing samples and it will try its best to match that, but still I just feel like I mean if I were to put myself in your shoes, that would just feel wrong to me. Like what's the point of anything at that? Like if I'm just doing that then might as well just start having sponsors sponsors right why have any morals or well not morals but why have any principles that you know are not even you know that you know are not even working I still look at AI as an aid I

working I still look at AI as an aid I don't look at it as an adversary yeah no for sure I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is immoral to use even in journalism it's not immoral to use but then at the end of the day yeah your users are paying for something that is more handmade Right. Right. It has the human touch, right? Yeah. I wonder if you could just as a test um have your article ready, you know, just like an AB testing and you could have maybe any of the AIS come up with like you can ask it to make it as unbiased as possible on that given topic and maybe you could then share that with a control group to

then share that with a control group to find out which they rated or which they found to be more um helpful. like across various metrics you could have like different measures for most engaging, most unbiased, most informative, whatever the case might be. And then you could do some backend analysis to understand what it did better and then maybe try to manually incorporate those things. I don't know just just very it's worth giving a try for sure. And so from there um so from what we've discussed, you've mentioned that it's like the whole thing depends on paying users, right? So I'm trying to understand what efforts you've spent into marketing in various ways to attract users to your platform and how that part of the journey has been because again it's just the nature of these things. You could

the nature of these things. You could have a really good product but if you don't market it well people just won't even know that it exists and you know it doesn't get the the rewards that it deserves. So how do you go about dealing with that? And n I actually learned it the hard way the point that we mentioned that even if you build a very good product it does not sell itself. We are prone to thinking that if you build something very good people will come build and come. Grapes said that I think he said build it and they will come. I think it is like a very famous word but unfortunately that does not happen in the real world. Yeah. Um and to be very honest marketing is not my strongest suit. I'm very poor at it.

my strongest suit. I'm very poor at it. uh my wife Salony she does a lot of heavy lifting and helps me out by the side in marketing and for dots the challenge is because we have put so many constraints on us with principles and ethics we can't go overboard with marketing there are few things that we can't do for example interesting yeah pricing for example right I'm sure you would have seen products which are let's say they sell for I mean they'll mark it up to 200 they'll slash it out and then they'll say at a day account selling at we can't do any of that nonsense and so it puts me in a tricky place uh I'm not

it puts me in a tricky place uh I'm not trying to find an excuse but uh I think we need to do a lot more in terms of marketing marketing uh LinkedIn has been a very good channel for us I think a lot of people from LinkedIn coming to our app uh and I think I just think that people on LinkedIn they love to care about news or at least is the pretend to care about news. Yeah. So, it helps us. Yeah.

news. Yeah. So, it helps us. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Instagram hasn't worked well for us, which is quite obvious because over there you are competing with get ready with me videos, you're competing with memes, competing with dance reels. It's very difficult to grab eyeballs. Yeah. I mean, I get what you're saying. The thing that's tricky with I feel like with just Instagram in particular is that it's it becomes at the end of the day a purely volume game. You know like it does if you pump out enough volume it will reach the right people for sure but that threshold point unfortunately is usually very high for as you said anything that's not get ready with me or you know all all those type of stuff. No

you know all all those type of stuff. No but we are not ready to play that quantity game. And we'll always quality over quantity. Absolutely. No, that's for sure. And then what about just stuff like running ads and such on meta platforms? Is that something that you've tried? Cuz I feel like I get ads for so many news stuff like so much. So I don't know is that something that you've considered or not? We ran few ads on LinkedIn. We got free credits. We didn't pay for it. We ran some ads. How was that? Decent. Decentish.

that? How was that? Decent. Decentish. Uh letting B CTR was around 5% or something reasonable, right? Yeah, it's not bad. I mean, a lot of people would consider me to be hypocritical when I say that I don't allow ads on dot, but why why are you thinking of putting out ads for dot? I mean, I'm not averse to ads as such. I I have no problem with ad as a model.

I have no problem with ad as a model. I'm very grateful that Google Maps for example is free because it has Exactly. Yeah. I mean I don't think it's a conflict of interest in any way for you to put ads out. It is not. And Frani social media is it's an ad platform. It is nothing else. That's true. Yeah. We live in an attention economy, right? And um I also you know I didn't it just didn't come up. I guess I didn't so I couldn't share this but um you what you said earlier about your wife Salony I believe who was helping you market she actually had commented on one of my friends Anand Charger he's like a study abroad creator uh she had commented about dot just on a random post of his and actually that's how I first came across you know your your

first came across you know your your platform here so I don't know you good job no truly yeah I just thought you would like to know that so yeah it is at work. It is a lot of grunts. So much work. Yeah. It just But you know when it works, it works. Like I'm the type of demographic. I don't know if I should say demographic, but person that is attracted to you know new novel ideas.

attracted to you know new novel ideas. If there's like a certain way of doing things that in a field that's run down and has been around since years, but if somebody's has like a new fresh take to it, I'm immediately attracted to that. like I immediately need to see what it is and whether or not it makes sense to me. So yeah, I mean it's hit or miss for sure. It's I was telling you yesterday also I mean there are a lot of parallels between the way you think and I think yeah truly I I love the concept of calling or inviting not experts to your podcast. I'm truly fully qualified to not be an expert. And yeah, I I think we touched about this about this topic

touched about this about this topic yesterday also when we talked about uh experts are doing more harm than good. They usually gatekeep their domain. Correct. This happens with journalism a lot. A lot of journalists are so high up in their castle that they have no idea what consumers are really craving. Yeah. And the other thing with that also is just how much intentional smearing goes on in in like really big big news media houses. um slightly tangential to this conversation I guess but just yesterday I think Brian Johnson had put on like this big thread on how he's being targeted by New York Times some reason and his whole point was like why are you doing this like just go report news you

doing this like just go report news you have such a huge you know brand so many people subscribe for your stuff how is it going to help you to come out with a random hit piece it's nothing else I don't know like we can debate on that either either But I just don't think ever you and me, we will never even get to know what happens behind the scenes in this big news rooms. We have no idea what is happening. But it's the incentives though like why is it why is that where their time is being spent for their journalists that probably make I don't know $100 an hour, right? That feels wasteful to me. But yeah, I don't know.

wasteful to me. But yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's just me. So either way, um what plans do you have for the future? Where do you see DOT in I don't know 2 years from now? It's a good question. Let me think about if it can even be further out. I just said 2 years arbitrarily or it can be even nearer. I don't know. I'm just looking for what kind of what plans are cooking in your head right now. I mean I'm more clear about what we don't need to do. There are few options that I can eliminate.

are few options that I can eliminate. Yeah. Yeah. I I get to hear from people that uh why do you not write 10 articles a day like you've already discussed the very obvious I'm not going down that road. I also hear from people who tell me that uh I've lost the ability to read for 3 4 5 minutes at a stretch. Would you be okay coming out with the a digest which is basically just an 80word summary of the Yeah. uh news piece?

summary of the Yeah. uh news piece? Yeah. Again not something that I would be comfortable doing simply for the reason that it defeats the vision that I had in the things that are relevant that are of substance they cannot be summarized into 80 word and they shouldn't be they're shouldn't be they shouldn't be they're going to hide more than what they are going to reveal which is going to do a lot more harm you might be better off than not even reading it in the first place truly and there are apps which do this I don't want to take the name everybody knows there's apps which which is quite popular. Yeah. It's basically an advertisement app masquerading as a news app. Exactly. So I'm very clear that I don't want to do these uh two

that I don't want to do these uh two things. What I want to do is one is to go go vernacular. Uh maybe this year, maybe next year. I don't know when that happens. Uh and this also stems from a personal problem that I've seen. uh back home in Jamshedpur my parents uh they consume the Hindi newspaper and whatever problems that we have talked about with the English media just amplify it by 100 times 100% you get the Hindi or any other local vernacular uh newspaper and I think this is a very artificial divide that has been created in society where you expect the the better thing to be in English rather than in English and it's rather than in Hindi and it's not just news even something like cricket commentary for example you thing yeah

commentary for example you thing yeah you you expect that the more nuanced commentary would be in English and uh the more superficial one would be yeah or more joky yeah I mean it doesn't help that they put you know navj singu on that thing but your point is a fabulous English commentator by the way he is he yeah that's so true just for whatever reason becomes a clown when he does like Hindi stuff I don't know Why he does that? It like kind of not just that artificial divide that we have created that uh Hindi speaking audience is not smart enough maybe or maybe they are a very good point. Yeah. Craving substandard substandard uh substances. Yeah. No. Yeah. Just like content. We can even just say content. I mean even knowing English when a child speaks English we're automatically

speaks English we're automatically accustomed to think that oh that's a smart child right but that has nothing to do like English speaking abilities have nothing to do with smartness you're very right yeah it's it's like a problem for sure so that is that a one-year goal for us I see uh and maybe beyond that we would like to go global maybe go into other countries other countries yeah uh so every week Let's say we come out with five, six, seven articles. Uh half of them are they're agnostic to a nationality. I mean anybody could have read it and they would have still liked. Few of them are very specific to India when we talk about politics in India. But otherwise anybody could consume it. Mhm. So maybe we go into a franchisee kind of a model

we go into a franchisee kind of a model in which somebody uses dots brand, our platform, our technology and few articles which are uh relevant to them and just build on top of it. That makes a lot of sense and yeah I mean both of those uh pathways almost feel natural and yeah I'm very excited to uh you know see and follow along with what lies ahead for DOT. Final question before I let you go and it's a bit of a misnomer because we have been talking about it kind of this whole time but what are some things about being a soloreneur that you know now that you wish you knew when you had first started and this is

when you had first started and this is more so just from one soloreneur to another. Um I'm just really looking for tips here. Um so yeah anything that you you say will be extremely helpful for sure. I mean I've just started 3 months back so I really am not qualified enough to give you gan at this point. You are way more experienced than me. Um but one thing that I realized very quickly is that it's very easy to start but just to keep going on that is the more difficult bit. Uh and and there are good days and bad days just as you would have in any corporate job. But when you're a soloreneur, the frequency of going up and down, it just increases and even the

and down, it just increases and even the amplitude uh goes up and down. Um so there are days when I feel that I've written my best piece. It's it's a masterpiece, right? But it does not really do too well. That is a sad part part. I mean I would expect that it it goes viral and people are talking about it but that does not happen. Uh but then there are days when some random stranger, a kind stranger just drops by and writes a very thoughtful note. Shame that those are so good. H those are the moments that you live for. Truly when somebody connects with the problem that you're trying to solve, they're as passionate about it as you are. They feel that the way DOT is trying to fix

feel that the way DOT is trying to fix it is the right way or is at least one of the right ways to do it. No, 100%. it. Yeah, there's very few simple pleasures in life that are better than, you know, just a stranger being like, "Hey, I came across your video. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for making it." That bit and I'm just I just find myself smiling for days just because of that.

smiling for days just because of that. So, absolutely makes you do those happy little dances every really gets something. Truly. and what you said about you know dealing with the amplitudes um just something top of mind that has helped me is just um James Clear's process over processes over goals so like if you if you never chase virality it won't affect you you know if you chase that okay I have to write for 4 hours today that's it just something that you do you don't ask why or how it's just your process and you have to do it I think I'm most happy when I am just sitting with my laptop and I'm writing a story I couldn't care less about what is happening around your

about what is happening around your back. I think that is that gives me a lot of happiness. Something that corporate job never gave me. Yeah. Again, so many parallels there. My equivalent of that is this actual conversation. Like I would have the same exact conversation even if there was no camera, you know, like it the the fact that there's a camera is just a bonus for me that then I get to put it out.

for me that then I get to put it out. But like you said, it's not why I do it. The why is still just you know talking to people or not experts I should say such as yourselves picking their brains and seeing you know how much I can learn from them and indeed there there is so much that I've learned from you today especially just around you know jumping in this rather murky field that everybody kind of likes to poke at with the 10-ft pole like they want no part of it they're like wow that's messy who wants to be a journalist right like do you even make money you know is is the type of stuff that you hear. But clearly here you jumped head first into it. And

here you jumped head first into it. And I loved how in the beginning you said that you were driven off of your passion for two things which is writing and solving that piece or um not liking the news interfaces or media that you were consuming. So you were just like well I guess if no one's going to do it then I will. And you just jumped you know hackers to at the end of the day if Dot is not working for anyone at least it is working for me. There is one happy customer of dot which is me. At the end of every day when I write that article I feel so much at peace. I feel so happy

feel so much at peace. I feel so happy that oh now it makes more sense to me. Now I know what really is happening in Israel and Palestine. So at least for one person on earth this problem is getting solved. So I'm just happy that way. Uh but that doesn't pay well. So I need to make sure that I But that's a separate problem, you know. Yeah, we it's a problem. It's an optimization problem for another day. But um it's been so great talking to you. I really appreciate you taking the time. Truly has been such a pleasure picking your brain about all of these things. And you know, I feel like I've learned so much.

know, I feel like I've learned so much. And I have no doubt that any listener that you know hopefully got until this point would have still taken away so much. So really really appreciate you taking the time and thanks so much Anukra. Thank you Nan. Likewise. That brings us to the end of that conversation with Anugurra Agnihotri who is the founder of DOT. Indeed I was blown away by how he taught himself writing, journalism, marketing and all of the various hats that he has to wear.

of the various hats that he has to wear. Thank you all for sharing these conversations with those that continue to benefit from them. If you would like to support me, the easiest way to do that is by subscribing to my YouTube channel and or leaving me up to a fivestar rating on Spotify or your favorite podcast apps. Catch you all in the next one. New episodes every Wednesday.