How To Start A Business School (& Attempt To Fix Everything Broken With Getting An MBA in India) - w/ Suchit

I mean as you said I studied from Anamabad I have 18 years of work behind me. Uh the last corporate edition that I did was as chief business officer of cosmetics. The fee structure I thought that was really innovative. Do you want to share a little bit about how you've thought about the fee plan? We India's first and only business school that the fee that the students pay is directly linked to the salary that they get through us. I'm Naman Pandi. This is the ready set do podcast and in this episode featured not expert is Such Sikaria.

featured not expert is Such Sikaria. Such is an IM Ahmedabad alum and the founder of Crucible Institute, a business school which is seeking to completely revamp business education in India by optimizing for practical skills needed for digital first businesses which the whole world including India of course is seeing a huge boom of instead of outdated theory taught by industry professionals and the fee structure is something that is so unique that I've never heard anything like it before. I was teaching at NMIMF Mumbai the core MBA program but there are I mean those glimpses of the problems that might exist in lower jaw institute in a typical MBA program students will go through about 55 courses on an average the way we have designed the curriculum about 18 of those courses don't exist in any MBA curriculum trying to think of

any MBA curriculum trying to think of what some of the problems that you envision might come up in line with our theme of learning from somebody that's just two steps ahead of us instead of an expert my goal with this episode is to spotlight what goes into building an entire business school from scratch. An absolutely herculean task, one that I'm surprised Sojit is tackling just by himself. Although I'm sure the large sum of money that he's raised is probably helping him. Uh the first two hires that we made are not people who are marketers, not people who are sales folks, not people who who manage my campaign, etc.

Subscribe on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast apps for weekly episodes featuring not experts and daily clips from those episodes on Instagram and YouTube. And now without any further ado, here's Such. Welcome to the Ready Set Do podcast where we learn from journeys of not experts who are just two steps ahead of us. Such welcome. Hey. Hi Nan. so excited to talk to you about how you're attempting to solve the crisis that MV education has become in India and I know we have a lot of layers of the onion to unpeel here today but why don't you kick us off with what Crucible Institute is and what problem it's seeking to solve and why you're building sure I mean I I wouldn't call it a crisis I mean publicly but yeah I mean I think the

publicly but yeah I mean I think the sentiment is something that we don't have to put it in words But I think uh I mean before we talk of crucible and why we are doing that it is actually very important to understand uh the I mean as you said the current state of MBA education and what prompted me actually to say that oh there's clearly a wide gap and there's a big enough problem statement that that requires a slightly different solution than what the typical uh MBA institutes have been doing and uh I mean without stating the obvious that the current MBA education is not very connected to the industry side of things and what the industry really needs. I think that that will be stating the obvious but let me go a few less uh uh

obvious but let me go a few less uh uh below and I mean try to unear why we seeing what we are seeing. Okay. And I think uh in my journey of trying to figure out what I want to build in education space and the journey which eventually led me to Kosible uh there are five or six key things that I realized are are the core reasons why the state of MBA education is what it is. Okay. And one big disclaimer before I go into those details is that uh when I speak of MBA education in general I'm talking of the averages. We're not here referring to the top institutes because obviously most of them are doing fantastic job and that is why they continue to deliver what they're delivering. So this is beyond those top 70 or top 100 colleges is is what I'm

70 or top 100 colleges is is what I'm referring to. Okay, that's a great call out. Yeah, I was just also going to have you clarify that but love that you already did that by yourself. Yeah and and obviously within those balance 2,900 colleges also I'm sure there are a few which are doing impressing stuff but we we talking of the industry at large and averages. Okay. uh but I think uh uh if if you really try to understand the fundamental uh issues at least from my perspective what I was able to understand uh and this is based on my teaching experience for six uh months for 400 students my interaction with students across different colleges and the faculty members both permanent and visiting faculty uh across different tier of institute in

tier of institute in myatical I was teaching at NMIMS Mumbai the core MBA program and NMIMS is the top institute and this might be a bit controversial when I say this but I think the first question that we could be asking when it comes to the MBA ecosystem in the country is who's running these institutes okay uh the moment you ask that question who's running these institutes a lot of uh things become clearer because uh there are two kinds of people uh uh out there one who have true love for education yeah uh but the people who are running the institute ute the true love for education is a minority feeling in uh the love for business of education is a lot more stronger feeling and that is where lies a lot of problem because the next set of questions that I will lay

next set of questions that I will lay down which I mean so first the anyway the first question is who's running these institutes okay without going into details it's something for everybody to figure out uh where is the money coming from who are the people backing that institute etc and is there enough love for education when they're running those institutes. Okay. The second big thing that we need to really understand is uh why are they running those institutes or why are they teaching? Okay. Uh are they teaching to provide education? Are they teaching to provide skills? Are they teaching to build personality and careers? Uh or are they teaching to suffice the demand that the industry has in terms of talent and train talent etc. Okay. Uh ideally it should be a combination of all of these starting with what the industry need and

starting with what the industry need and how building talent skill for that and providing education in that direction. But the big problem is uh industry for some reason is not very integrated into how the education institutes run and hence why are they teaching is not as clear as it should be. uh uh because what it feels like is the teaching is happening only to provide a degree and to earn a certain fee against that degree. uh and that is why you see the disconnect between the kind of roles that the industry wants, the kind of skill building the industry wants, the kind of salaries that the for which there is demand in the industry versus the salaries that the institutes are pushing and then learning the disparity between the fees that they able to deliver because they're

they able to deliver because they're just pushing teeth increasing prices without really understanding that the industry may not require so many people beyond 15 20 lakhs of salary the real demand in the industry might exist at a slightly lesser salary point and hence there's no reason why it could push the people beyond a particular level because then you're automatically doing that math okay for this much fee I should be able to deliver this much salary but those roles don't exist and then the expectation of students is a big mismatch because the student coming after paying so much fee also expect that kind of salary but somewhere the rationalization needs to happen that there are only so many rows that exist at 20 25 lakhs of salary or even 15

at 20 25 lakhs of salary or even 15 lakhs of salary. The bulk of the industry requirement lies at a much lesser salary price point. Who's teaching students for those and who's developing that mindset that you start your career depending on your initial caliber in various grades and then you in the long run eventually you will uh meet somewhere in the middle. Okay. Uh but anyways why are they teaching is very very important. I don't think a lot of institutes have a very clear answer.

of institutes have a very clear answer. If they had that answer, they would automatically integrate a lot better with the industry and and do things around what the industry requires. Okay. the third. So if I can really quickly just pause you here and and and if I say well the goal for these institutes when they teach students is that they just want to provide the you know even if it's bare minimum but they just want to provide the bare minimum business education to this person that then they hope that using that framework or you know just the bare minimum that they provided the student will then be able to by themselves figure out their path forward. Do you think that's an acceptable um response to that in terms of why most institutes teach MBA or not?

of why most institutes teach MBA or not? Absolutely. Absolutely not. I mean see the thing is uh uh ultimately you are in you're a business right? I mean you're not doing this as a nonprofit entity. You're not doing this as charity philosophical reality about business that there's a customer. You charge a certain amount to that customer and you deliver an outcome to that customer.

deliver an outcome to that customer. Okay. Uh what is that outcome is what I'm trying to question. I mean are they are they taking ownership of that outcome? It's very hazy. They're saying that we'll teach you and we will provide you an a platform to get hired. But are they doing enough for the right hiring? Because the industry so the other aspect the student is one customer of the institute. Okay. The other indirect customer is also industry right the company who who hire from these colleges. Uh so I mean colleges are providing students to these industries as a as a customer. Okay. Are is the industry happy with the kind of readiness that these students come in or are they still struggling to say that oh these guys are not job ready the fee

these guys are not job ready the fee does not really justify the skill that they bring on table and these are not just technical skills it's also a lot of uh soft skills managerial skills also. Yeah. So is is Indit also really happy with the outcome is a big question unless you clearly define what is the outcome that you're answering with your education with your institute it's a big problem okay and I mean addressing your uh original question I think the third and a related point is uh what are they teaching okay if I have no clarity or very limited clarity on why am I teaching and what is the outcome am I delivering then what do I need to also becomes a big problem because then you're teaching everything under the sun largely generic. Uh you're not upgrading

largely generic. Uh you're not upgrading your curriculum. You're not making it uh contemporary. You're not understanding what kind of uh skills that the industry currently requires. How has industry moved forward in the last one and a half two decades? Because if you see the curriculum at most of these colleges, it is pretty standard. It is still the same. The curriculum still teaches marketing as 4p largely. Okay. the full first year students just learn 4P of marketing etc. Whereas in in companies marketing has taken a completely different shape and form. I mean there's a brand marketing specialist, there's a retention marketing specialist, there's an acquisition marketing, there's performance marketing, there's content marketing, there's product marketing. Uh

marketing, there's product marketing. Uh some of these things don't even exist even as terminologies inside these MBA programs. Let's say supply chain. Okay, supply chain what innovation has happened in the curriculum. Whereas if you actually see the kind of brands that are emerging or they they are D2C brands, digital first brands, there's a large e-commerce play, there's a large modern trade play, there's a large quick commerce play. So uh I mean you might say that supply chain is supply chain, what do these things have got to do with supply chain? But the thing is there are a lot of uh newer things that have emerged. What are distributed fulfillment centers? Unless you understand those nuances uh it's very difficult to to say that I will become an operations specialist etc. right so

an operations specialist etc. right so uh I mean and on a lighter note for example uh the curriculums I mean the curriculum still teaches people how to calculate cash flow okay whereas the businesses are saying can you be somebody who understand how to manage cash cash flows calculation etc is all fine but I mean if you're in a P&L role if you're in a business ownership role etc. Mhm. first at least understand what cash flow is and I mean the next expectation is can you manage it for me because if you don't understand that a lot of these new age businesses startups etc mean won't even exist right so these are conversations that not even happening inside uh the traditional MBA colleges okay and hence I'm saying what are you teaching is that curriculum

are you teaching is that curriculum based on the outcome that you want to deliver and if the outcome is industry uh ready talent automatically You'll understand what roles at what salary and hence what skill and hence what need to be taught and the curriculum will automatically flow from that because that link is broken and immediately related thing is who's teaching. If if the curriculum is is what it was you don't really need newer talent and newer skills to teach that somebody who taught that 10 years ago is good enough to teach in fact better because concepts etc. you develop a better perspective. So the faculty who tenured in teaching some of these core concepts are still great and they continue to be loved by students etc and I think deserve that respect completely.

I think deserve that respect completely. The problem is uh what is being taught is I mean is so limited in the current context and so irrelevant to the current context. The newer things have gained so much more importance. there's not enough regular faculty to teach that because they have to have exposure of how an e-commerce company works, how a D2C company works, what is omni channel supply chain, all of those things. And if I'm not seen that as a as a industry practitioner, it's really difficult to bring that context inside the class and I will continue teaching. I will stay in that comfort zone to teach things in the same old fashion distribution. I mean distribution has came tremendously because of all the third party uh uh

because of all the third party uh uh logistics and uh in warehouse infra service providers people are evaluating a nondirect distribution model where they're saying why do I really need a distributor what is the service that distributor is delivering to me because I have so much distributed fulfillment setup with third party service provider yeah yeah what I'm trying to say is uh if however good I am as a faculty however I good I am as an educator if I don't have that new industry context very difficult to learn uh it as an outsider point one and is there enough effort is there enough time for me to even go and learn if there is intent some people do that but those are maybe 10 to 15% of the good faculty the remaining I mean the

faculty the remaining I mean the industry exposure remains a challenge okay so that's that the point on who's who's teaching uh multiple issues the nuclear exposure is limited and hence they don't know and hence they are not contributing towards innovation in curriculum uh the pay structures that exist for both permanent as well as within faculty for permanent faculty I mean there's no real incentive to do more be more do better etc because uh there I mean beyond the love of teaching I mean the salaries don't get incremented as much correct salary would there's no concept of performance linked appraisals etc you spend time and the salary increases in a linear fashion etc. Okay. And the base in itself is is pretty I mean I don't want to share those numbers etc. but uh uh I mean

those numbers etc. but uh uh I mean anybody who's who seen those numbers would be really surprised because the kind of money students make after getting passed out of these colleges is is more in a lot of colleges than what the faculty gets paid to teach them. Okay, which is a big big irony. I mean uh and the and the thing is it's not that there is no money. I mean the the fees is there, money is getting spent but the money is getting spent on fancy infra versus providing quality uh to what you were saying earlier right that the people who are running these colleges why are they running these colleges and that's I think that's kind of where we come full circle here I do

of where we come full circle here I do want to just shift the light to you a little bit so you obviously went to Ahmedabad right that is the single best MBA college in India so I'm yeah so I am curious curious. So when you share that um you know the third and fourth problems that you mentioned which was that what is being taught and then who is teaching them are these things that I am Ahmedabad really does that well and all the elite IM honestly so do you so like the stuff that you mentioned around all all of the nuances of marketing of sales and such were you taught these things when you were there or was this just stuff that you picked up by yourself later in your career and such like do you ever think back around that?

like do you ever think back around that? No, I think I think I think it's a fair point and uh uh whatever amount of respect I have for that institution. I think uh the reality is also true for them to a large extent saying that the curriculum has also not not evolved to the required levels in in those institutes as well. Wow. Obviously obviously but see the thing is IM continue to do well uh for a lot of reasons. One of the bigger ones is really selective input. Okay, if you're only admitting people who scored above 99 percentile in CAT and have stellar performance through their school and graduation, I mean automatically you're you're setting up the whole batch as an average for great success because see the industry the I mean the reality of the situation is

mean the reality of the situation is companies go to a college to recruit not because they really believe in the transformation that the college have done in but they see that as a great filtering process saying that I will automatically get the best of the talent in a in a pecking order I go to IMA I go to amb that's true the the quality of talent I will get etc and that continues till let's say as I was saying till top 50 60 70 colleges yeah but the challenge is uh the two three things with that 100% of the workforce in companies is made up of people who score beyond 99 percentile that's again I mean a certain small percentage of the entire company.

small percentage of the entire company. Mhm. So that's one part of the problem who's who's fulfilling the remaining workforce. So whatever you give them, I mean they'll be able to quickly learn that and apply their super intelligent brains faster than somebody who's not cracked cat etc. I mean I'm not saying that uh see I mean again big disclaimer at Crucible we strongly believe that a score in an exam whether it is a cool graduation or an entrance exam has zero implication on what your true potential is what you can do in future it's just that how the system is evaluating I mean coming back to your original question of IMA yes there's a gap there but because the talent is super smart they're able to pick up things faster and it's not as

to pick up things faster and it's not as evident as what it is and plus the thing is there's a healthy mix of people who've gone through a lot of work. So when you sit in a group etc there's a lot of shared perspective the exposure to industry. So while the curriculum may not be as updated the exposure to industry is a lot more the kind of alumni network that exists the kind of intense uh internships that might happen etc. So the industry exposure during those two years also adds to a lot of learning if the curriculum is not geared towards that completely. Okay, makes sense. Yeah, the whole 360deree ecosystem enables a lot better learning.

ecosystem enables a lot better learning. But I would say the curriculum is still see because the cases okay look at look at the cases that exist. The cases are I mean accessible outside IMA through IMA portal etc. Howard cases all of those the cases mostly the good quality ones are written in the context of early 2000s late 1990s. That's true. Yeah. If you try and search for recent cases, there are hardly any in the current decade 20 onwards, you will hardly find any cases. Whereas the larger shift in the industry has happened only in the last 5 to 10 years. Yeah. Correct. Y so that is that is a good indicator of what I'm saying that the curriculum has not moved forward. there are not enough

moved forward. there are not enough cases being written in the current context etc and I have used a lot of those cases when I was teaching in my visiting faculty stint and I struggled to pick up cases which have relevance and resonance with the current uh generation because they were not even born in that time okay if you were not even born in that time how do you understand the context of the society the cultural context the economic context that existed so that's one big problem and the other problem that's anyways been there irrespective of the time uh time period is very few Indian cases. I mean largely the cases are international always international.

international always international. Yeah. The the context of the country the culture etc brings so much more understanding but uh why can't we have more cases in Indian context more contemporary brands etc. changing seeing a lot of uh for example the alternate MBA colleges like masters union and meta etc making that attempt and they're bringing a lot more industry like case studies industry like problem statements which form many cases in themselves if we can call them that uh so I mean there are ways to crack that but the intent as I said the intent has to be towards a particular outcome and the moment that's clear uh but anyway quickly completing the series of questions then coming to

the series of questions then coming to the Sorry. Uh I think who's teaching is important. Okay. Uh and uh the next thing is how is the teaching done? What is I mean basically how are you teaching? Uh because one part of teaching is concept building etc. which is very very important but the other aspect is how are you able to apply those concepts into practical applications and there has to be enough focus towards that. I don't think that's happening to the extent it should happen. Again multiple reasons for I mean the thing is there's no one reason why there's a problem that's the sense I'm getting yeah these are all intertwined with each other right absolutely okay see okay for example uh if you have to build core concepts and then do practical learning on top of that one you need good teachers who

that one you need good teachers who understand the core first fundamental I mean first principle thinking fundamental thinking concept building which the traditional professors do really well and that is why we respect them a lot right the only challenge challenge with them is they don't know what's happening in the industry currently and they're exposed they lose out on that but this part the concept building is great okay and the core courses for example brand management for example consumeration I mean these don't change the philosophy and the principle always stays the same right but uh when it comes to building practical application towards that the one there is no time because the course has to be forfeited into 20 sessions only even if I try to do something I miss out on

I try to do something I miss out on teaching the core concept within the course and hence I have to write to those concepts because I have to forfeit everything in those 20 sessions even if I give assignments which are practical assignments to student I don't uh have teaching assistant support in so many colleges okay who evaluates those assignments who give feedback even if I'm evaluating I will only give one I tried to do that in a 20 session course I had 10 different assignments so basically one concept every two sessions. So 10 concept was my entire course and for every concept I had an assignment. But the problem was I realized that I had given the assignment I had evaluated the assignment graded the assignment but there's no feedback to the students as to how do they do it

to the students as to how do they do it better what is the gap what have they done well there is absolutely no time outside the class for me and inside the class. So I mean it's not just a problem of quality intent etc. It's also a logistical problem when it comes to doing learning which is concept plus. So you unless you solve for that logistics whatever you do whatever amount of I had the greatest of intent when I was teaching teaching but I still couldn't do it matter yeah yeah yeah because the logistics didn't support so whatever they do inside the classroom and outside of it is incomplete if there is no real industry exposure okay you you try to teach supply chain but if the student has never even seen what a warehouse looks like very difficult for that poor kid to

like very difficult for that poor kid to really visualize and understand what is being had in the class. Yeah. So whatever amount of practical application you build on top of concept building, if the industry exposure is missing, all of that falls flat. And hence how you teach also has to have a great input from the industry where industry comes in and says okay if you're providing talent to me eventually who failed and you're building the entire curriculum towards what I need and you're building the right skill set so that the student is ready from day one. I will also contribute by providing that real world exposure and live learning. That is where the academia and the industry coming together will really uh uh I mean solve this problem. So that's the other aspect and I think overall just to sum

aspect and I think overall just to sum it up eventually what is my ownership of the outcome as an institute am I ready to take any kind of ownership ownership towards my primary customer which is the student and my secondary customer which is the industry. uh currently the colleges are doing neither uh and I mean that's that's my I mean summary of the problem statement I don't know if it is uh so I'm saying I I don't know if it is too clear because I mean uh I keep thinking about this I've been thinking about this it no no it's super clear yeah and I think what it has done is it has really set the stage for us to kind of revisit all of the problems that you mentioned and if you can walk us through

mentioned and if you can walk us through how exactly how how did you think about solving and then maybe if you can kind of self-evaluate and I can help with that part as well but if you can self-evaluate in terms of we think this will solve I don't know like 80% of the core of this problem you know and then maybe some aspect you'll be like this we have only been able to do 60% of or whatever the case might be we can have kind of like a rank system going where we self-evaluate if that makes sense perfect no I think and I'll try and be quicker this time because we've anyway We have so I think it's perfect because like the way I'm visualizing the structure here is that half the first half hour was just in terms of you know

half hour was just in terms of you know what the hell is the problem why are you doing any of this right that's important you can't skip past that and now once we have established that obviously I think the listeners would love to know how it is that you're addressing this stuff that you've pinpointed all of these problems so I think yeah that's perfect so let me take these questions again very quickly and exactly it the crucible way. I love to call it the crucible way.

way. I love to call it the crucible way. And my creative team has also used that communication that also comes across. It has a nice ring to it. Yeah, I like that. The crucible way. The crucible model, the crucible way. It comes across a lot more. But anyways, uh the first question was the who's running the institute. Okay. So, obviously I'm here. I uh I mean as you said, I studied from anabad. I have 18 years of work behind me. uh the last corporate stint that I did was as chief business officer of silver cosmetics and prior to that also I've uh run P&L businesses large teams as big as 250 people etc. uh I mean the point is uh I have left all of that and

point is uh I have left all of that and I could have done businesses in various areas uh but education is something I'm doing not because it is so if you talk to VCs the VCs will tell you that education is not a business which give the kind of returns that VCs love seeing basically a certain uh x time growth in 3 to 5 years etc I mean that's that's typically how they get returns etc. So but they will also tell you that it's a very cashrich business. But I am not alone in this journey.

alone in this journey. Obviously we've raised angel round of one and a half cr. Uh the angels who are on board are people again who love education. Uh who wanted to do education somewhere in their career, senior pros etc. Some of them are educators from two decades. Uh some of them are educators who've been teaching in multiple colleges apart from doing a lot of running their own companies, founding their own companies etc. So it's a mix of uh people from uh uh various aspects of business but the core central theme is their love for education and we've been very conscious of uh ensuring that whoever comes on board either either as a investor or an adviser or a mentor should have that educator mindset or at least love for education. Okay. between that net sum is who's running Crucible,

that net sum is who's running Crucible, who's building Crucible. Why we are doing that? It's pretty simple. We saying that it has to lead to an outcome which is where we delivering students who are ready for the industry on day one. Basically, job ready students on day one. That is the outcome that we want to deliver. And the moment we say that it serves both my customers really well because the industry get trained talent at the right salary. the students know okay I am getting ready for this kind of industry these kind of companies and hence I need to study this and this is the role and this is the salary that exists for me so while placement is a black box in a lot of traditional MBA colleges people don't

of traditional MBA colleges people don't know which company is going to come which recruiters are in pipeline etc we will give that visibility right on day one that these are our industry partners who are associated with us for live learning uh so even five months Before we have started the college, we have about 20 people who publicly confirmed with us who will be industry partners for live learning of students. And we are saying that if the student is regularly interacting with these companies, working with them on short projects, long projects, remote projects, internships, apprenticeships, etc. And then seeing that rigor, we're seeing that people are getting trained on what they need and plus there's a very specific company related and job related training and I'll talk about it later. recruitment becomes an automatic

later. recruitment becomes an automatic byproduct, right? Because I mean why would a come everybody needs good talent without wasting too much time and effort absolutely on on recruitment and training and if all of that is happening with your inputs, why would I not hire? I mean it's a no-brainer. Yeah. One quick follow up on that because there's obviously so many you know like for lack of a better term many industries within MBA. Do you does the student get to decide which track they're going into or is that something that happens organically once they start learning?

organically once they start learning? Sure. Sure. Okay. So the thing is because we saying that why are we teaching and it is related to the industry. You're right. There are too many industries that exist. We can't do uh it all together for all industries. Okay. Because the curriculum design might differ drastically for different industries. industries. We've tried to take a subsegment which is broad enough but also specific enough for us to deliver a curriculum towards that and that need that need for us is new age digital first businesses who are running stably I mean running with stability and growing steadily and also looking to become omni channel. Okay. So any consumer product business, any SAS product business, any digital product business that has started in the last 5

business that has started in the last 5 to 8 years I would say is in that bucket. Uh and the moment you look at these companies consumer products, digital products uh and omni channel I mean aspiring to be omni channel company but digital first in their basic nature. uh you will see that there are certain roles which are common across the exactly and there's so many and there's so like voluminous numbers the growth in the country is happening there they are the ones who are ready to experiment with talent they are saying I don't care where the degree comes from I am ready to bet on skills and the intent more than the degrees etc because they need those people immediately right they can't sit around for and teach somebody

can't sit around for and teach somebody on the job they're like if you have the skill please hop on help us. Correct. Correct. And plus they're also very conscious of the money that they pay. Yeah. The moment you are very clear with that what needs to be taught uh becomes automatically clear because you said these kind of companies these kind of roles at this salary bracket and hence these these are the skills that I need to build and if I have to build these skills what do I need to teach? Okay. So in in a typical MBA program students will go through about 35 courses on an average. Uh the way we have designed the curriculum about 18 of those courses don't exist in any MBA curriculum. I

don't exist in any MBA curriculum. I would be very surprised if more than 10 12 colleges in the country would have even 50% of those 18 courses that I'm talking about. Uh for example, there is a course on product packaging and design. Now product packaging and design is not something that students learn in an MBA institute typically but I think that's really important because uh and especially for the kind of companies that we're talking about because product packaging is so complicated now uh simply because there are different channels at play different sales channels at play. Uh yeah. To design a product pack that works on digital D2C platform that works on a marketplace that works on quick commerce that works on in an empty store and works in a single store is very complicated because

single store is very complicated because each of these channels have their own nuances. Content marketing for example is a full-fledged course. Okay. Uh yeah. Uh eccount management in in e-commerce is a full-fledged course. Okay. uh the moment it is it is one of the most super critical roles for a digital first company uh very difficult very hands-on there's so much tactical nuances that exist I mean right from saying that what is the catalog building that I need to do what is the challenge that I face as a business when I'm listing my products what are the various small small considerations I need to have in my product catalog and product detailing so that my product feed on these e-commerce sites is well optimized that I mean

sites is well optimized that I mean itself is so much detail. Okay. So just real quick for this particular course like how long would this course be for a student that's learning this at Crucible? Do do you have that detail down already or just curious just curious. Yeah. Yeah. So see the thing is the entire program is of two years. Okay. And the reason why it is of two years is because the kind of transformation that we're talking about for specifically people who have very little experience after their graduation etc. I mean we need that much time and plus if you're talking of concept building plus practical learning as well as industry exposure all of that yeah all these three things I mean it takes

all these three things I mean it takes that much amount of time. Okay. uh what we are saying is each once we have decided the curriculum and top level courses we've also gone to the detailing of how what we need to do within each course what are the important things and hence what is the minimum duration that we require for that course okay uh and we have not stuck to a format where a course could either be a 10 session course or a 20 session course because largely that's how it happens we saying irrespective of whatever number of sessions it takes it could be a five session course it could be a 45 session course also okay there's one course that is 45 session. Now you would say why don't you break it into two courses. The simple reason is we've broken courses

simple reason is we've broken courses into two or three different courses only when the skill set of the faculty required to teach that is different. If the same skill set and the same kind of faculty is required to teach that why should I break it up into multiple modules because then there is no continuity. The other big problem in curriculum design I've not gone into those details is I mean within the current setup the intelligence in curriculum designing is so missing. uh I mean I don't even want to go into those details and I mean large part of the learning gets missed because you've not done the curriculum designing properly because redundancies redundancies across different courses or you've missed out on certain key aspect of a particular

on certain key aspect of a particular course or you've just forcefitted a big course into lesser sections etc. So that's the problem and hence we have said that what is the minimum duration for that course given that we have to teach these many topics. Typically the moment you break down a course into the topics that you want to teach or the concepts that you want to teach in that course you will have an idea because typically a concept takes two to three sessions. Okay. Okay. If there is a practical assoc practical assignment associated with that uh concept you'll take three sessions or you'll be able to do it in two. Okay. Okay. And you also provision for a lot of uh practical simulation inside the class because if I just leave it outside the class there's very little that get in the way it would

very little that get in the way it would be most teaching is very I mean a no-brainer because the industry experts have to come and teach because uh for example the account management in e-commerce is something that I mean the best of the educators can't teach if they've not done it themselves. Exactly. Somebody who's done that has to come and teach. That's the kind of faculty and we I mean the other big problem that I have with non-traditional colleges let's say the modern format colleges is they they're over glamorizing the CEO and the CXO involvement in teaching uh it sometimes feel as if they're running a series of podcasts uh because they're I mean how how much time can a senior guy come and dedicate towards teaching maybe

come and dedicate towards teaching maybe a session or two or three weeks that's just crazy I didn't even know this was happening it just feels like not the smartest idea to me at all because Five problem the thing is the real teaching is happening by the right set of people. Okay, I'm not saying that the real teaching is happening only through the CXO level people but the communication is such that oh I mean the CXOs come and teach there. Okay, the CXOs come and take guest lectures, they do small workshops, they do perspective building.

workshops, they do perspective building. But the real teaching is being done by the right set of people. But the problem is you're misleading again. I mean you're the torchbearer. then you should be correcting what is wrong with the misselling in the industry and hence you cannot also end up I mean for right intent and for I mean for all right reasons but but anyways so that's that's one of the things but the thing is the kind of people whom we would get is somebody who's at a mid to senior manager level not the top leadership because the top leadership even if he or she has the time will not know how to set up a product catalog impossible for them to know because they've not done it themselves. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It would be like reading off a book and

would be like reading off a book and nobody wants that or is interested in that cuz I can read off a book, you know, so why do I have that person doing that? Yeah. So, so that's that's okay. Uh and uh the other thing is when it comes to curriculum, you might say that okay, person X from this particular industry will come and teach this particular course. uh but then there there is a problem within that is that if I come from fashion industry my uh knowledge my experience and my perspective will largely revolve around the fashion industry but when you're teaching you need to make people think and teach how to think in various scenarios in various uh context yeah uh and that is where we also will have per

and that is where we also will have per course area not per course but per course area a paid panel of industry experts who come with de diverse experiences endeavor industry at least three to four people with quarterly sync ups in person or I mean if if geography is a challenge but I mean a fixed frequency sync up for a day or two to figure out what's happening in the industry what latest what tools and technology how things are tipping up etc and if we see a very serious trip happening or something that we've missed that just immediately provides input to modify the course outline immediately and because the person who's teaching is also a part of that exercise. It's responsibility of that person to also incorporate some of those learnings. And the other thing that we're also doing uh

the other thing that we're also doing uh the first two hires that we made are not people who are marketers, not people who are sales folks, not people who who manage my campaigns etc. But people who are program coordinators and learning experience managers and not just one person but two people for the same role. uh their primary responsibility is to ensure that the quality of teaching and learning should not be a function of the quality of the educator. Okay. Because if you rely only on what the person is bringing to the table and you have no inputs as an in Yeah, I was just going to say cuz then it will be like you know I know the one of the problems was that

I know the one of the problems was that it's not skewed enough to the industry but now we run the risk of having it be too skewed to the industry and to that specific industry. So I think that's the constant yeah problem solving that we'll have to do here. these two program coordinators who will also do be doing their one is a P person pursuing PhD one is a professor already in an undergrad college okay so those are the kind of people we've picked so this is how we solve for some of those things uh not 100% solvable because the big constraint here is again logistics because there are people who working on sbaticals and and have taken uh breaks to actually teach etc so we have a mix

to actually teach etc so we have a mix of those people but also people who are currently working alongside doing this. So it will be a bit of a challenge and we'll have to be flexible. So one of the things that we've already incorporated so that logistical challenges get mitigated uh is basically typically in an MBA college there is a term of three to four months three three and a half months and one course is spread across the entire term in equal number of days.

the entire term in equal number of days. So two two sessions per week etc etc. We saying once we start a course we finish that course in continuous sessions. So there's a session every day for the course. Two reasons. One because of logistical challenges of visiting faculty. They can't sit for three months if they're working. Yeah. Yeah. Two, uh I realized that students forget if there's a gap of one week in between two sessions. That's that's true. I I would always do a quick 5 to 10 minute revision every session because I I got feedback from the students uh that this this is helpful. Okay. Yeah. Because it's consecutive days. Yeah. Huh. And I mean if you're doing revision it helps.

mean if you're doing revision it helps. So I mean if you're doing it in continuity we're able to build concepts concept sequency and we're able to do a lot of things on top of each other. Okay. Uh so that's about who's teaching and I've also covered in a bit I mean how we teach. I think we actually covered most of the you know the way the you're you're solving. Um I did want to save this really cool part for the last thing which is that when we were talking offline about the fee structure I thought that was really innovative and I think a lot of our listeners will be honestly I was blown away by that. So do you want to share a little bit about how

you want to share a little bit about how you've thought about the the fee the fee plan and the fee structure. Sure. See whatever I have said will sound like global gan and global philosophy because it's easy to say all of these things. Okay. I was I was uh talking to one of our uh current mentors. Uh she's in our advisory and mentor list. But when I was talking to her for the first time and she is a professor ex-p profofessor at IMO for more than a decade I think and uh she's a PhD herself from I am Ahmedabad. Okay. And when I pitched this to her she said any college talks like this only work I mean uh I I will see it when you do it and with respect. Okay.

when you do it and with respect. Okay. which is uh I mean that's that's a fair reaction and hence uh coming to answer your question which is where I want to just own what I'm saying and put my money where my mouth is uh I had said that this is built for the industry uh and the student as consumers okay uh and if I'm so confident of the model that we are teaching everything that the industry requires and recruitment should they buy product etc etc I could be confident enough to say that my fee that the student pays to me should be directly linked to the salary we are able to deliver for them and hence what we are saying is we are India's first and only business school that says the fee that the students pay is directly

fee that the students pay is directly linked to the salary that they get through us uh which simply means that if you earn more through us you pay a higher fee to us if you earn lesser through us uh you pay proportionately less fee okay simple math is whatever your salary is we will only charge 67% of that as our fee. So we saying that the initial cohort our projected salary range is about 8 to 12 lakhs and hence 10 lakhs is the average salary that we are expecting for our first cohort. Uh 67% of that is 6.7 lakhs. Uh you pay that 6.7 lakhs in the first year in four equal installments. So it's not pay only when you get paid model because that it's easy to get confused.

it's easy to get confused. In my mind, this is not what we intend to do. This is not a marketing communication. This is basically saying that we will hold the outcome uh in fact we charge that 6.7 lakh in four equal installments and again I mean most of the colleges we amounted which puts the student under pressure of taking loans etc. But we don't want to do that to our students once placement happens after one and a half years of the course. If you get placed at let's say 11 lakh which is 1 lakh more than the 10 lakh average you pay me an additional installment of 67,000 which is 67% of one lakh okay or if you get a salary which is let's say 9 lakh I rep

salary which is let's say 9 lakh I rep that amount to you okay uh basically the idea is uh we've benchmarked ourselves on this particular quality parameter which is salary to pay ratio with the best colleges in India and if you average out the top 25 colleges their salary to fee ratio is 1.5 or 67% of the salary is the fee that they're charging. Okay. Okay. Average basis and we said that while our absolute salaries may not be as high currently. Mhm. But at least on that quality metric we want to ratio should still stand. Yeah. And and that's that's where this thought comes from. Uh it is plain and simple. We I have a big problem with all colleges that charge a certain fee but there's no ownership of the outcome and the fees keeps

the outcome and the fees keeps increasing the bat sizes keep increasing but the money doesn't go back to the educators the teachers have no or there's no benefit to the industry etc. Exactly. uh and I mean the moment all of those things happen there's no quality in education and hence we are saying that you want to build it in a very very responsible manner and we we're very upfront about it uh saying that I this is not lip service and that is where that whole whole claim of fee linked to salary is is a centerpiece of how we want to build this because that gives students a confidence saying that okay whatever be the market condition whatever the uh the situation after two years I am not getting burdened by a heavy loan or just because I have not

heavy loan or just because I have not earned the right package because right now there are colleges who are charging fee upwards of 18 20 lakhs but their average salaries are not more than 12 13 lakhs right okay it's it's a big problem for the students uh I mean people talk about MBA being a long ROI game etc etc but where is the long ROI where is the short ROI there's no ROI yeah um that No, that makes sense. Thanks for sharing that in such great detail. Um, really the just the last question here before I let you go cuz I know I don't I want to be mindful of your time. But I know when you were, you know, planning about this the whole fee structure, it's just it

the whole fee structure, it's just it seems to me it's just such a key integral part of your whole package that you it's, you know, it's like you can't think of Crucible without this offering just because it's so unique. So I'm just curious um as to what some of the you know potential pitfalls be it in the in in terms of how it's being perceived by your students or or by students that would want to be interested in this or even really just society or businesses in general. I'm just trying to think of what some of the problems that you envision might come up. Not necessarily that these are just unfixable problems, but I'm just trying to think when you were doing this brainstorming, what was that like and what were some of the things that came up? Sure. So to be honest, when I was

up? Sure. So to be honest, when I was doing my brainstorming, I never thought it uh about about it like that because in my mind, my intent was extremely strong. Okay. And I'll talk about as a closing remark uh the three things that I wrote as my purposeful statement when I started thinking about building an educational institute. Yeah, I see. I see. But when I spoke to a lot of people obviously I mean the challenges and practical challenges and fair challenges as you also rightly said. I think the first thing is this turning out to be gimmicky in in communication because I have had to I mean forget the normal people outside my team and my I mean partners etc for my creative team to explain it to them that this is not pay

explain it to them that this is not pay only when you get placed model. That is not what we are saying. It's very different. And then somebody in my team said, "Okay, why can't we flip this and say that you get paid 1.5 times of the fee?" Okay, I said those are also two different things while mathematically 67% and 1.5 times are the same thing. Yeah. But the moment I say uh you pay me X and I will give you 1.5x in salary is very different than saying whatever salary you get, I will only charge 67% of that. Right? So mathematically the same but consumer behavior wise two very very different things. First pitfall is making it sound gimmicky and I've been very conscious that this is not

very conscious that this is not gimmicky. Two people asking okay if if that is the case what what if a student starts relaxing during the two years saying I mean my and my water the bridge who cares yeah yeah and hence if you see our brochure and the communication on the website we purely mentioned that this does not apply to the bottom 20 percentile of the batch after repeated feedback and monthly evaluation. If after every monthly evaluation and repeated feedback and input, you're not improving your side of the effort. This is this is not a facility that's there to make us look good. This is for the right student who want to uh put in the right amount of efforts uh and not an easy escape for

efforts uh and not an easy escape for people who don't want to put in the right amount of effort. So that's the second pitfall that student might take this easily. Okay. The third thing is the question that comes up uh which says uh what if I don't get placed at all do you charge no money? Uh I think that's a very fair question to ask. Uh but if if the student does not get placed in spite of fulfilling the right amount of effort from their side etc. we will have to stay true. But I don't uh see see that scenario because I mean as I said for a batch of 30 we already have 20 partners on boarded which are publicly officially

on boarded which are publicly officially communicated and we are onboarding more. So if I mean per student if I have more than one partner who's already associated three months in advance of opening the college and everything with them the coming from those companies the I mean the learning opportunities are happening with those companies uh and they definitely demand the talent they they have that requirement the salary structure that we're talking about is extremely reasonable and the kind of intense hands-on training I mean we've not spoken about but most of the NBA colleges don't teach people the tools and the platforms required for doing day-to-day jobs. Okay, if you're a marketing manager, you can't do without learning a marketing automation platform. And we will teach that inside

platform. And we will teach that inside out maybe better than some of the folks who've been doing for doing it for six, seven months would know. Okay. Wow. That is the kind of level we want to bring to our students. I mean, recruitment will be an automatic no-brainer. While so while it sounds like a challenge, it's it's not a challenge in I like that. Yeah. cuz I was ready to jump all over you and start poking holes into what happened to accountability if you if you would have said that oh we will still charge them anyway but so it's good that yeah it really does feel like you know this is an honest um honest offering and you you're not and not not really a gimmick which only that we'll be expecting from the students is a lot of

expecting from the students is a lot of flexibility and a lot of rigor okay they're flexible enough in the kind of roles that are available because the industry industry preparation and contact might change every year. I mean that's pretty simple. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'll I'll maybe touch upon the three things that I wrote as that would be great. Yeah. I would love to end on that note. Yeah. And I mean it's so beautiful because I mean in my sorry digressing for a 30 second time. Yeah. In my NM stint, we were talking of brand building and we said that what is the importance of writing a clear brand purpose and uh the brand values. I think what we did at Crucible I mean just was a great example of how important the brand purpose could be because everything that we have done

be because everything that we have done has flown from those three things very seamlessly. Uh uh so I I'll quickly talk about that. The first thing is we will be non- elite. Okay. Uh by that I mean that this will never be an institute that only caters to a certain section of the society which is either coming from a privileged background and hence has a starting point which is ahead of the other who able to pay more who has had a certain quality of education etc. I mean if those students come to us great we're not discriminating but we are saying that we will never be non I mean we will never be elite in the way we operate.

never be elite in the way we operate. Yeah makes sense. Uh the second thing that we wanted to do was to say true transformation. We will ensure that there is true transformation that we bring to our students which means that we will shape their character, skill and personality and not just skill. Okay, which requires a lot of effort outside the class as their mentors and understanding where their gaps are and working on them subconsciously. They might not even know. Okay. But I will ensure and and the people involved will ensure that we are transforming that student over a period of two years and hence we will never do anything that is not truly transformative beyond this course also. I mean this is just one program but that's the basic philosophy and the third thing is we will make

and the third thing is we will make students ready for the industry from day one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Everything you've said has pointed to that. It really feels like that is the north pole for you you know or sorry north star I mean um that has guided you this whole time. Just quickly I mean completing the point of how the brand elements have flown from these three things. If you see our name crucible institute institute of management crucible and in basically literally means a vessel where you mold and mesh metal in the high heat and pressure. We are that place for our students because we will transform them through vigorous training across various aspects. Uh if you see our logo, it's it's a bunch of squares. There's a red dot. Basically,

squares. There's a red dot. Basically, the squares is what you start before crucible and the red dot is the tr truly transformed student who stands out uh from from that lot. uh and I mean there are a lot of other things but uh those three things have have helped us be very clear about what we want to do what we don't want to do what is the right set of people who will join us what is the kind of teaching we want to do etc for example I mean uh when I'm choosing my industry partners also uh obviously I want to communicate them to you have to

want to communicate them to you have to still have that those three in mind I I have been very clear so I have started meeting some of the head of HR of these companies already to say that what is expected from them so that it's not just a logo on a website that looks good but doesn't deliver the real learning when the course starts. Okay. Correct.

the course starts. Okay. Correct. Correct. Because we we don't want to be a place like that. And uh I think I mean just purity of intent and love for education is is what I have uh when we're we're building hopefully the students are able to see it. Uh that's that's the real litmus test. See you you feeling excited about it is one thing but the students are the real litmus test. If they see this then I will feel happy. Till then the hard work continues. Absolutely.

the hard work continues. Absolutely. Yeah. And I feel like even after that the hard work continues right because I can already tell just you know I've only known you about one and a half hours but I can already tell that you're the type of person that will not relent. Like you're going to keep trying to make this better and better every single day, every single cohort session year. And yeah, I mean really appreciate you taking the time here today and um I honestly like you know not to be too presumptuous but I I would love to meet again maybe you know say a month from when the classes have started. I think you said August. August is when it starts, right? And you know, it would be really cool to go over um what what are some of the things that have surprised

some of the things that have surprised you that you were like, "Okay, I thought this would happen, but that did not happen." And then actually happened. Absolutely. Absolutely. That would be really cool to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It would be good fun because I mean I'm facing those uh reality checks every other day, right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Would be fun to do that. Sounds good. Yeah. We will set that up and it sounds great. Thank you so much for taking the time today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks Nam. This is really pleasure. That brings us to the end of that episode with Such Sikaria. Thank you all for sharing these episodes with those that continue to benefit from them. If you would like to support me, the easiest way to do that is by

the easiest way to do that is by subscribing on YouTube and leaving me up to a fivestar rating on Spotify or any of your favorite podcast apps. Something that goes a long way is if you in person tell your friends, your family members, whoever has ears or is willing to listen about your new favorite podcast. Definitely hitting a plateau here. It's been pretty rough over the past few weeks and I'm really hoping to see some change in my fortunes here. Thank you all for watching. Catch you all in the next one. New episodes every Wednesday.