How To Get Real Press in 2026 (Without Paying For Forbes.. Ex-CBS Journalist POV) - w/ Vaishali

So it's like a running joke that if a PR agency tells you they can guarantee coverage then you should run away from them because no PR agency can guarantee. After years inside CNBC, NBC and CBS newsrooms, Vashali Goa built her own PR agency. So I asked her how it all actually works. You know, if you're paying for that kind of coverage or exposure, it's like saying look at me, I'm the best. But when you get an earned piece of coverage, that is someone of very high integrity and credentials saying that you are the best. Starting with how to vet anyone in 5 seconds and why the PR trophy everyone wants is probably the wrong one.

wants is probably the wrong one. If you go to the news tab on Google, you'll be able to see where all that organization has been featured. you know that this is written by a journalist and so the founder of that organization could not have had a say in getting this article published. By the end of this episode, I promise that you will know exactly how real press works and how to get it sometimes without paying a scent.

sometimes without paying a scent. A lot of press releases will start with something like we are thrilled to announce. No news article really starts like that. It is the most overused phrase. Just saying that my product is great is not news for anyone. But does your product solve a very large problem? problem? Please join me in welcoming Vashali Goa to the Ready Set Do podcast. Let's dive in. Vashali, welcome. Thank you so much for having me, Nam.

Thank you so much for having me, Nam. It's been so long since we've trying since we've been trying to get this on the books and I am so thrilled to have you here. I think where I want to begin is in terms of how PR is perceived outside of you know the circle um for me and a lot of my friends peers a lot of whom are founders that are actively looking for this type of thing. I think the perception has become thanks to a lot of if I may say sleazy salesmen type people that reach out to you know cold approach people just on their social media and such that hey give me $1,000 and I'll put you in Forbes and then [clears throat] so so um what

and then [clears throat] so so um what what that does on the outside right is gives this all kind of a very um untrustable type of perception that and then next week I see like this person that I met at party sharing on LinkedIn that they were featured in, you know, like Business Insider or whatever. And then you're like, hm. So, is this like legit or and I'm not not trying to say that paying $1,000 is not legit, right? Cuz it's a service. So, all of which to say, what does that look like from the other side of the table where obviously you belong and have been operating in for such a long time now? I know it's kind of a loaded question, but just kind of wanted [clears throat] to kick off there. Yeah, I really wanted to start

there. Yeah, I really wanted to start with a heavy question. Um, no, I think it's super interesting. It is an interesting question for sure. Um, I actually think that, you know, to your point about what you said that when somebody approaches you with that kind of an offer, it paints the PR industry as like uh, you know, an untrustworthy kind of industry. But actually the point of PR is the complete [clears throat] opposite uh which is to create trust in people who are going to be reading about you as a founder or your brand. Um that is the purpose of PR right. Uh when the media writes about you that is um you know even to this date in the society it is seen as a milestone. It is seen as a

is seen as a milestone. It is seen as a big achievement when the media writes about you. So when done right, PR is really that stamp of approval from the media and it's and as a result of that it is a trust building and a credibility building exercise. So, anyone who's reaching out with an offer for paying $1,000 to be in Forbes, I mean, you know, that there is definitely lacking some type of um authenticity that particular offer because um you know, a big misconception is or at least what is assumed to be the biggest part of PR is press releases to the extent that some people actually think think PR stands for press releases. um you know which is absolutely not true obviously but also that press releases are such a small fraction of what PR is.

are such a small fraction of what PR is. Um, you know, a press release essentially is an announcement. If I'm a brand, a press release is an announcement from my side. And if it's an announcement from my side, I will obviously say what I want to say, right? That is the point of a press release. If I'm launching a product, if somebody new is joining my team, if there's an acquisition, anything like that, right?

acquisition, anything like that, right? So, I get to build the narrative and that's why it's called a press release. And a press release will in most cases be published as is in publications. However, it is still a press release. The best way to differentiate a press release from a news article is that more often than not, at the end of the press release, you'll always see for press inquiries or for more information, contact XYZ. And that XYZ person is either a PR professional or a PR agency um or like an in-house, you know, media person at the company. and got it. Um, Um, if you're reading about somebody uh, you know, I feel like today we are aware enough where people can spot sponsored content um, or press releases from genuine earned media. And uh, when we say PR or the type of PR that I do for

say PR or the type of PR that I do for example, it's all earned media. And although it's um, self-explanatory, but earned media is basically something that you earn. So you can't pay for it. It's basically as simple as that. You can't pay for this type of coverage. A journalist has to be genuinely interested in either the story or the work that you're doing. So to answer your question, to circle back to it, I would say that um PR is actually a trust building exercise. So the profession by itself should not be seen as you know unscrupulous or um you know anything but something that is leading towards that credibility for your brand. So anybody who's doing PR the right way will never be selling you that kind of a service. That's very interesting and I think

That's very interesting and I think already you've for me at least and I'm sure for a lot of our listeners um painted the landscape so well around what this stuff entails. Like I for one had no idea that press releases are not the same as you know the other type earned media which you said because on the outside right you just see whatever you have right like Forbes or um Wired or or whatever you have right and then you have people being like hey I was featured on Wired and then how many people are going to go through the article scroll to the bottom and you know fish for that one line that says that uh for press inquiries etc which I feel like even that feels a bit sus to me because shouldn't that like explicitly say that this was uh you know

explicitly say that this was uh you know um I mean there are other telltale signs. Usually a press release or a sponsored piece will have you know something like sponsored on the top. Um it will have something that says press release like a tag that says press release on the top. towards the bottom it will say um you know uh Forbes had no uh you know like these are these are the ideas or the uh maybe not ideas these are the um even when you publish for example an opinion piece uh with a publication which is entirely different from a press release but what I'm trying to say is that that you know when a publication has not directly worked on a piece they will make sure especially a you know a credible organ organ credible publication such as Forbes, they will

publication such as Forbes, they will always make it clear that something is sponsored or advertorial content or been paid for and that Forbes as an organization or its editors had no role in creating the content. Interesting. Interesting. Although in fine print these things are always in one way or the other given. So um another very quirky way to um to recognize a press release by the way is um unfortunately a lot of press releases will start with something like we are thrilled to announce uh we're excited to announce and this has become like this cliched way to announce like a launch or something like that. No news article really starts like that and you know as PR professionals is like something that we joke about that we really should not be starting press releases with thrilled

be starting press releases with thrilled to announce it is the most overused phrase. So these are some telltale signs to recognize when something is earned media versus some type of either sponsored or syndicated content. Mhm. That's so helpful. And I was going to ask why Forbes would allow their name to be attached to something like this, but I think that question answers itself where I mean it's just money, right? They have the platform, they have people willing to pay, they don't risk any lack or loss of, you know, um credibility by doing this just by disclosing. So why would they not do it, right? So that part makes sense. Did I assume that right or am I off there? just by the way. way. Yeah. So there are syndications and there are uh advertorials. Even within journalistic publications, there are

journalistic publications, there are different sections that exist. It's different for every publication, right? right? Um but it it does exist. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. So then the question then becomes look I understand from your POV when you're inside like these things are like you know heaven and hell. They're completely different. From the outside though the problem then becomes why would I so obviously earn media from what it's sounding like and I would want to explore that more but it's sounding like way more difficult to do right like you can't just slap some money at it and you know call it a day and you have your like name published on like an article.

like name published on like an article. So can you help make the case for why um earn media is more not credible because it is we are aligned on that but more useful for maybe founders or you know anybody that's looking to make a name for themselves when the outside world doesn't even care or understand the game well enough to tell the difference between the two right like it's like lost on them so what am I missing here or is it just like this um I think there are a few pieces is there's a few moving parts. So there are people you know who understand the difference between even if they don't work in the PR industry you know there are people who understand the difference between a genuine article written and reported

a genuine article written and reported by a journalist versus something that is sponsored um and one of the easiest ways and I also stole this from somewhere I don't remember who told me this but one of the easiest ways to differentiate is some of these other forms of media um you know if you're paying for that kind of coverage um or exposure it's like saying um you know look at me I'm the best right so I am saying that I'm the best but when you get an earned uh piece of coverage that is someone of very high integrity and credentials saying that you're the best. So just by giving that little analogy you can understand that there is um psychological uh you know kind of perspective also involved here. Uh if we

perspective also involved here. Uh if we talk about how someone perceives your brand because everyone now knows that yes you can pay for uh a certain type of influence on social media. Yes you can pay for these ads and all of that right. So I think any type of informed um consumer or customer is definitely looking for oh how do you know you're act how do I know that you are telling me the truth how do I know that you are um really respected in this industry and I don't think that those paid forms of media is going to be the outlet that they look at for that kind of proof right like genuine social proof I It's everyone, right? Like even if if

It's everyone, right? Like even if if I'm buying something, let's say, I will look at the reviews, but my first thought is like I will never look at the reviews on that product's website because you could have, you know, you could have paid for for those. I will also not look at the reviews that say sponsored or whatever, right? Like because come on, like I want a genuine feedback. I want to genuinely know if this product is good or not.

this product is good or not. So think of it, think of it as that. PR is just a very extended form of that. Um to give you an example uh you know let's say that there is a college admissions consulting company and u parents are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars for this type of college admissions consulting experience so that their um child can go to the best college that they want to go to. Right?

college that they want to go to. Right? So now as a parent first of all this is such a competitive industry because there are so many players there are so many individuals companies consulting organizations that are offering this type of service college admissions advising right it's a huge industry now as a parent how do you decide which one to go with either you will rely on word of mouth where somebody has used it and is telling you hey it worked wonders for my kid you should go for it and that almost like seals the deal for you in an instant. And if you're doing your own research, then you're probably going to

research, then you're probably going to Google a few options or, you know, search it on OpenAI or something and you're going to have so many of them. Then you're going to have the social media of so many of these organizations. So, how do you really know? And all all of them are five star. All of them are five stars. All of them are 4.9 or you know, whatever like highly trusted. Um, so how do you decide? Uh, all of them have great testimonials, video testimonials. Um and I think that that decision can lie in um just clicking on the news tab. You know, if you go to the news tab on Google, uh you'll be able to

news tab on Google, uh you'll be able to see where all that organization has been featured. And I think the instant uh you know the instance when you see oh this partic the founder of this organization was featured by Forbes or their story um of how they helped a student appeared in a highly reputable education publication that will then start influencing your decision because you know that this is written by a journalist and so the own the founder of that organization could not have had a say in you know getting this article published or what the journalist is going to say rather. So that's an example to show you how it can influence buying decisions.

influence buying decisions. Yeah, that's very helpful and I think what I'm taking away for the most part is basically like the power law, right? So you can go from 0 to 80 by doing this type of like paid stuff, you know, mostly for the masses and such that just don't care. They just go on your LinkedIn, see your header, it says business insider. They're like great, let's follow this person. Good for them.

let's follow this person. Good for them. But then the problem becomes for the final 20 where it really matters, right? Where Where you're trying to get clients to convert, where you're actually trying to build real trust with, as you said, informed consumers. That's when it becomes detrimental to your cause cuz then they see proof that okay this person is willing to you know like present something. Mhm. Yeah. And like I think this is what's so interesting for me that I get it like I would understand why somebody would just want to like pay money and not in their posts and such disclose that oh I actually paid for this. Um but on the other hand, what you're saying is of course 100,000% accurate also where yeah like did you build any trust by doing

like did you build any trust by doing that and if you did who was that trust built for? Is it the people that you want or just people or is it just you know like a vanity metric that nobody really cares about? So that's very interesting. And while I noodle on that I I do want to kind of turn the spotlight on your journey a little bit. I'm very curious like from your LinkedIn and such. I know you started off in the newsroom, right?

you started off in the newsroom, right? So, I'm very curious kind of if you can please talk us through how you started your own agency. You've been doing it for 5 years now, I believe. Um, Vashali Goba Media, [clears throat] excuse me. So, yeah, can you talk us kind of through your journey and how does one get to where you are currently in terms of helping other people do um earned media and and PR in general?

earned media and and PR in general? Yeah, thanks for asking that. So, I did start as a journalist. I studied journalism um at Rutgers University in New Jersey and um I always wanted to be a journalist. So, I studied journalism along with business management and my journey was actually um I had no clue by the way that this is something that would happen. But, um my journey started with the student newspaper at Rutkers.

with the student newspaper at Rutkers. Uh it's called the Daily Tarum. And um because I grew up in India, I had no clue that um universities or colleges have their own newspaper whereas Rutkers which is a you know university of like 50,000 students the newspaper there was very central to the university and it was [snorts] I believe it is the second oldest um university newspaper in the country. So the operations of that is kind of like an actual newsroom because it's a daily newspaper that we were publishing and um you're responsible for getting the um like the physical copy of the newspaper out every day. So there's a publishing team, there are deadlines, all of that.

team, there are deadlines, all of that. So that was a very enriching and fun experience. Also helped me find my own community in university. Um and then from there on I moved into internships um at my first internship was at CNBC again in New Jersey and um that is obviously a much you know extended version of an actual newsroom. It it was massive and so much to learn. Um you know there's the CNBC obviously has a TV channel also so there's like the TV going on in the background. you're able to see, you know, um everything live and you're kind of just like a little nobody in the background. It's pretty cool when you're starting out and um I think um so so that's that was my journey. So from CNBC uh from my internship at CNBC I went to and uh although these

went to and uh although these internships were more kind of behind the scenes where I was learning and all of that but I always wanted to see my names in by lines uh I was very clear about that. So I any opportunity that I got uh I was you know very kind of a little bit pushy about them like oh what kind of boundaries can I push in terms to like really pitch a story uh that's probably through the daily taram and all I probably heard the term like pitching for the first time like oh you pitch a story um so so when I was starting off my journey as a journalist I had to pitch stories to editors and I

I had to pitch stories to editors and I was an intern so it's not very usual for interns to be publishing stories but I um because I had the in I had my background from India as well. So I remember the first story I did um was actually about um at the time you know Prime Minister Narendra Modi's term and how it was going in India and as a result of growing up in India and being from India I had a little bit of an edge. So super interesting experiences um starting off then from CNBC I went into NBC News um New York affiliate and I was part of the investigative journalism team and that was super interesting because uh I got to accompany reporters on like quote unquote undercover assignments and

quote unquote undercover assignments and um really you know uh pull the curtains off of so many kind like you know scams that were happening in the or um just like um all of yeah some of those like really interesting things that were happening at the time and again because all of them have a TV channel so you do get to see oh this is the story that I worked on and now it's on TV so all of those uh very very humbling kind of experiences um and then from there my final internship was at 60 minutes um again in New York um and I'm familiar that itself yeah 60 minutes was a completely different experience because

completely different experience because it's a it's a news magazine style and very long for journalism like extreme uh you know very in-depth research that goes into it. So um again I had u I was very fortunate to be getting all of these experiences and because 60 minutes is um you know part of CBS. So that's how I got my um first uh employment through CBS news. So that's when I started. Yeah. So you really yeah you you got to do it all. I feel like there is no type of journalism that you were not able to touch just in your internships which is that's the point of an internship. So I just wanted to say that that's so cool that you got to touch all of these

that you got to touch all of these diverse parts of this experience. But sorry, please keep going. Thank you so much. No, it it really was uh I think it was one of the coolest things that I got to do and um everyone who was working at the Tarum um you know was getting because of their hard work and experience they were getting to experience they were having similar kind of experiences. So I mean honestly just being um there was a time when I was working at the Tarum and also doing my internships. So I used to you know after like if I come back from my internship to go to the Tarum office. It used to be

to go to the Tarum office. It used to be like such an enriching experience because everybody had something to share. they were working in different parts of journalism and we were obviously all like you know much younger and uh there was just so much to share and it was really a lot of um fun as well as like great learning. Um so from there I started working at CBS news um and again I was part of a program which allowed you to spend um time at different uh sections of CBS news. So I believe I started off with like the archives department uh which is very different from anything that we see on the news. Um and then there were other parts uh but I also got to work with the

parts uh but I also got to work with the Steven Colbear show. Um this is an audience management. So my job was to um you know help people who were like outside waiting in lines and then help them come in like usher them into the um into the auditorium I guess or the whatever you want to call it. And um so yeah, my job was to usher them in and like it was more on the logistical side of things, but um as a result of it, we actually got to hang out with the Steven Colar team and so like I was not involved in anything journalistic there.

involved in anything journalistic there. I wasn't doing any writing or anything like that. But um yeah, it was it was so much fun like being in that studio. Studio is the word. being in that studio and like watching the crowd and the way that it's recorded. Um, all of that was I mean I it's like a once in a-lifetime experience and all of that was extreme fun. fun. Um, and then I moved like to the news side of things which is uh the morning show. So there I got to do a lot of behind the-scenes kind of things like accompanying reporters, um, researching for stories, finding sources for stories, whatever needed to be done, like whatever it is that nobody else

like whatever it is that nobody else wants to do. It's like, you know, one of those things that you always give it give it to the junior most, right? And I was more than happy. Honestly, I have no complaints. I was willing to be at the office at 4:00 in the morning because the show started at 7, so you had to be there early. Uh so yeah and um that was my journey um unfortunately which came to an end because uh I couldn't get an H-1B visa to stay in the US. So um I had to my time was you know coming up and so I had to um move back to India where I

I had to um move back to India where I continued being a journalist and um in India I actually had the opportunity to be a television journalist. So I was hired as a producer um as a broadcast producer and I was working on um both kind of prime time and other shows where I was like writing. Um so the way that it works you know with broadcast media is that yes there is a news anchor and they are reporting everything that happened you know in that day. Um but uh the behind thes scenes team the producers they create packages. Uh so a package is basically you know kind of this actual story. So it wouldn't just be a headline. It would be like the whole like visuals and like what is the full story. So that's called a package.

full story. So that's called a package. So I was writing those packages. So a lot of like broadcast writing. But that kind of um you know pivoted into an on air role for me which was again uh super exciting very very nerve-wracking. I I don't think I was ready for that. Um and it required a lot of training and um I was also very young like I was 23 years old so it was a lot to learn and a lot to feel nervous about. Every morning I was doing like morning um 7:00 a.m. kind of uh shows and yeah it's a lot of work that goes in before that. So all of that

that goes in before that. So all of that was my journey with journalism. Um super exciting. Um completely loved it. Um yeah so uh then I pivoted into PR and I was working uh within the brand and communications team of uh you know multi- conglome conglomerate in India and um so that was uh all it's like the different it's like the other side which is I'm part of a brand and communications team of a brand right so it's not like I wasn't part of an agency but I was working with uh PR agencies and such. Gotcha. Um and I did that for 2 and a half years after which I decided that I want to uh venture into doing something of my own and the only kind of um knowledge that I

and the only kind of um knowledge that I had was that okay uh you know I was just like interviewing for a few things that I had applied on LinkedIn and uh one of those roles was with a startup but they wanted to hire me as a consultant. At the time, I didn't even really fully understand what that meant, but I learned that it means that I can work for them and I can also work for other brands if I wanted to. And this was a company based out of Europe. So, I thought, okay, that's pretty exciting.

thought, okay, that's pretty exciting. Um, and I jumped at it, started doing that, but then also started getting more projects. So, that's how I became a consultant/f freelancer. This was while I was still back in India. So to answer your question, I started working for for myself in 2021 and by that logic it has been 5 years. Yeah. Yeah. Um and then I did that um for a for a couple of years but then I was moving to Canada because uh my you know 2B husband had moved to Canada for his MBA and I wanted to be with him. So I was moving to Canada continued doing the consulting

to Canada continued doing the consulting freelancing. I was also pursuing my masters and um what I wasn't sure of like how can I continue with this path in Canada you know it's a new country I didn't fully understand everything um and so I kind of played around with the consulting freelance whatever projects I could get and ultimately I realized that okay I have enough work that I can potentially look into um how to run this as a business which means that it you know it's something that um I wouldn't just be doing by myself. Um also like I think there was um so yeah so the requirement in Canada to be able to register a business is that you have to be a permanent resident. So

have to be a permanent resident. So that's the condition I kind of put on myself that I told myself that if I get my permanent residency then I have no excuse to not turn this into a business because it's quite scary when you're in a new country. I had all the excuses to not do it, right? Um I also started a job in the meantime like to see if I I would enjoy that. I really did not. So I knew that I'm going to uh I have to choose this path for myself. And so when I got my permanent residency like uh you know I I went into the to the route of like registering a corporation that's what gave rise to Vashali Kaba Media which

gave rise to Vashali Kaba Media which now is a PR agency and consulting business. Yeah, that's kind of a long story. We'll give you some time. No, no, that is crazy. So, I guess so, first of all, I have like 20 million questions, but I'm going to start off with some of like the very quick rapid fire type ones. Okay. Okay. So, the first being when you do So, I guess exactly what was your degree when you were at Ruters? You you said it was called was it a bachelor's or was that a master's? Yes. Okay. Back to you then. Yeah. So, actually journalism uh by itself you at least at Redkers you had to do another uh like either another major minor with journalism.

major minor with journalism. Um so I decided to do my So I was a double major. So I was a double major in journalism and business management. Um which now that I look at it I think worked out fine because I'm Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I want to do both. Yep. You were you were playing 4D chess right from the start without without even knowing it. Yeah. And honestly I was very unsure about the business management degree because I went in just knowing I'm going to study journalism. When they told me you have to choose another major I was very confused because I was like I have nothing on my mind and I choose I I chose that because RGERS has a very uh reputable business school. That was

reputable business school. That was number one. I was interested in business and management um that that side of things for sure like even in India during my education I did study um you know accounting and business and um all of that so it seemed like a natural transition but it was not what I had like you know it passionately gone into doing that passion was always kind of reserved for journalism but I had a bachelor's degree yes makes sense and then so up next then you said that you had uh you had applied for the H&B were not able to get it. So, does journalism Oh, you didn't apply because No, because um the employer that I was working with told me that they wouldn't be able to, you know, sponsor

wouldn't be able to, you know, sponsor me for the H1B. So, and I looked for other jobs that would sponsor me or but it didn't quite work out in the time that I had. I worked with like lawyers. Um it didn't quite work out. So, I decided to Makes sense. So I guess yeah and like I so my question was going to be is that common for journalist type degrees or bachelors that you had said like do people usually are able are are people usually able to find employment that does sponsor or is it just like just really really hard for that to happen cuz it's not STEM right or is is can it be STEM? Honestly, it some of it can be

be STEM? Honestly, it some of it can be STEM. It depends. Um, some of it can fall into the STEM category and I know that there are different roles for STEM. Most of the people that I know who have managed to get H1Bs have been in STEM. So, I definitely felt like, oh, I'm some type of like odd one out kind of a I'm in a different kind of scenario. That being said, I know of people who have gotten H1Bs even with a journalism degree. Ultimately, it's a lottery and um you know, smaller companies um or companies of a different nature might be able to offer that sponsorship. Again, it's very case by case. So, uh it didn't work out in my case and maybe I could

work out in my case and maybe I could have gone other routes, but that's the that's the reality. Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. So I guess my question then because you're still in this space for anybody considering getting we'll say in our toy case a masters right in in journalism or related you know that era of uh like degrees do you think it still makes sense to not care too much about STEM or if given a chance folks should probably go the STEM route if they're trying to do it right now in 2026.

do it right now in 2026. I don't think I'm the best person to comment on that. I my experience is from 20 like I left the US in 2017. Um a lot has changed since then as you very well. Makes sense. So I don't think I'm the best person to comment about that. Um I do however think and this is the advice that I got even from uh the lawyers that I was working with at the time. if along with journalism you can find a way to you know maybe turn it into STEM or something that is a possibility but I don't know much more that makes sense yeah that makes total sense and yeah it it also tracks that it's been like so long so it has been long and you know what I

it has been long and you know what I will say is that um studying journalism at Rkers and all the experiences that I got afterwards um they were a highlight of my life so if somebody's passionate about journalism looking to study journalism journalism um and is you know um open to venturing out into all of these like internships at newsrooms and all of that. I would definitely say that yes it is it is one of the most exciting. Yeah and I think that's where we also run into the everpresent tension between what you want to do versus what life is allowing you to do quote unquote and and then obviously that becomes a a conversation for probably another time.

conversation for probably another time. But what I want to do now is switch gears a little bit and talk through some of your experiences with your PR agency like after you started your business. So one of the things you've been very vocal about uh at least by following your posts on LinkedIn and such is the notion that most founders or brands don't utilize the like expenditure that they have for PR and such even with earned media appropriately. Right? Right. I think that is a notion that you have put out a few times. So I am curious to explore that. Right. So maybe to set the stage here. Can you walk us through like a happy path of a consultation that you provide, right? So let's say I am a

provide, right? So let's say I am a founder, right? I reach out to you. I find your post on LinkedIn. I'm like, "Hey, Vashali, I really want to get featured the right way, the, you know, trustable way. Not paid media, but earned media. Let's do you can we book a discovery call? So then like can you walk us through the happy path I guess of what happens from this point until that eventual publication in this case?

that eventual publication in this case? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So um it's very important to understand what a client is looking for. Um because you're very right in spotting that uh PR is kind of a misunderstood industry for sure. and not just misunderstood, it's also an industry that people know very little about, which is why PR is often confused. Like, you know, it all of these words like press release, PR, press, um, publicity, they're all just used interchangeably and and that's maybe even fine to some extent, but like marketing, advertising, everything is used, you know, PR is like kind of considered um that it falls under all of these uh this umbrella or it is interchangeably used. So yes there is a lot of um lack of education there's also a lot of like um you know it is a

a lot of like um you know it is a misunderstood industry for sure. So that's why during the discovery call and um after even it's very important to understand what expectations does a client have. Um you wouldn't you know I don't think it's surprising that a lot of people come in wanting okay how do I get into Forbes? So I think that the role of a PR consultant agency professional whatever is also to educate the client that um this is not how it works. Uh first of all, right? Like be be willing to say that and education can happen in so many ways. Like once you start having that conversation, okay, what are your goals?

conversation, okay, what are your goals? What are you expecting? If we talk like 3 months from now, what what would have made what would make you happy? Is there someone else or some other player you're seeing in your industry that's doing something that you want to do? Can you give me those examples? Um, so some founders because they've worked with other PR agencies have an understanding of PR of what has and has not worked.

of PR of what has and has not worked. Some don't. So I always try to start with these questions so that I can either step in and give some of that some of those like um, you know, some of that education and also to kind of like debunk some of those misconceptions that uh, someone might have. And then we get into uh my process which is like you know I work on a minimum of 4 months kind of uh retainer basis and the reason behind that is uh PR is not a short-term exercise in the short term it's not going to bring you anything that you're looking for really and one or two hits are exactly what you said uh vanity metrics so if you want to do one or two it's maybe because you can add it to

it's maybe because you can add it to your LinkedIn bio or in your signature Um I'm not the person for that because u the amount of work that goes into the foundation building part of PR in the first you know 3 or 4 weeks is huge. Uh it's very valuable work that goes into it because it's setting the stage for what is going to happen after. It's setting the stage for the story angles that we're going to discover. So to put all of that work together just for one or two stories is not worth it. Um and also it breaks the momentum. You know, PR is a momentum building exercise like so many other things that we do, right?

so many other things that we do, right? Like if you run a business, you're not going to stop because you got one client. If anything, it will give you more confidence that now you can get one more client. So, you're going to keep going. Same for PR, right? Like if you get featured in a local publication, this gives you confidence that your brand is worth talking about. So, why wouldn't you go farther, right? Why wouldn't you now target something national? That's one side of it. The second side of it is also understanding what kind of media works for you because Forbes does not work for everyone. Um, you know, getting into Forbes can be great for again optics, but it's not something that necessarily works for everyone. Uh, because it may not move the needle for your business at all. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, it might get you extra likes,

Right. Um, it might get you extra likes, it might get you some DMs on LinkedIn. Um but if your goal is to move the needle for your business, then um you know quite naturally you need to be in the publications that your target audience is reading. And your target audience might not be reading Forbes every single day, right? Like they might be reading a local publication that they pick up at um you know that that they want to know like the local news about their community or they pick up at like a cafe. Maybe they're reading those publications. And again it depends on what the target audience is. Maybe your target audience is reading like substack newsletters. So then the question becomes do you only want to be in Forbes

becomes do you only want to be in Forbes or do you also want to be in these like local or trade publications which will actually do something for your business? Do you want to be in both? Um and as and and because of that you know I keep saying that PR is a it's not a myopic exercise. uh it's not it should never be shortsighted because once you start building that momentum you'll be surprised by the kinds of things that happen. Um so for example one of my clients um in Canada you know they were featured in a local newspaper uh in Sbury Ontario. They're featured in the biggest newspaper in Sbury and that was noticed by a CBC uh national radio um journalist journalist and um because she posted about it on

and um because she posted about it on LinkedIn and so they uh noticed that and then they wanted to interview her from that local story. So there are so many possibilities that if you cut the cord at like one or two stories then you are cutting the cord for what possibilities are out there for your brand and once that is done once the expectations are clear uh you know then we obviously move forward and in terms of moving forward I do something known as a brand clarity session as part of my onboarding with clients um it's basically like an in-depth call where we go over a list of questions questions which helps me understand what this person is about, what is their brand about and what kind of stories can we get. But the goal is not to go into it

get. But the goal is not to go into it looking for stories. The goal is to have a conversation and the stories just come. Um, but it depends on the questions that you ask. Just yesterday actually or two days ago maybe I made a I wrote a LinkedIn post about the questions you can ask to extract story angles and you know those questions are around what is the most unexpected reaction you've ever gotten to your product or services service what is something that everyone gets wrong about you um right if I asked you that question it will require some thinking but but when you come up with that answer it will be such a solid answer that there is definitely something there um with PR are we're looking for stories that relate to a bigger trend. The journalist is not interested in a oneoff

journalist is not interested in a oneoff kind of thing. If it doesn't evoke any emotion in the reader, then it's as good as not doing it. So, a journalist is always looking for some type of trend or pattern because if you really think about it, journalists are um you know, they are the people who bring trends to our attention. They're like the OG, you know, people who are bringing trends to our attention before like influencers.

our attention before like influencers. They are the ones who point us in the direction that wait a second, this is not just happening in your area or your culture or your country. This is now becoming a global phenomenon. Like everybody's talking about this. I read a story in the Washington Post, you know, about how tights, uh, like leggings that women wear are no longer cool. Um, but how other women are fighting that they will continue to wear leggings because they think it's so comfortable. I mean, that is like such a cool story, right? Like that journalists can think of something like that. And by doing a story like that, they're showing that there is a trend. We're talking about a trend here.

trend. We're talking about a trend here. So now if you reverse engineer uh a brand that sells leggings, I mean, great story. But if you're only focused on like, hey, this is my brand and all my leggings are made of this material, I'm sorry, but that's not such a great story, story, right? Cuz it's looking in versus looking out from the higher level view of the area around it. Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Like um we're dealing with the news here. So, what is the news? You know, just saying that my product is great is not news for anyone. But does your product solve a very large problem?

your product solve a very large problem? Um, does it tell something about your story? Because when you started it, you had no idea that this is what it would become or you had a full-time job and you started this as a side hustle and then it blew up. So, what are all of these stories? So in the brand clarity session we get into all of these stories which is the most interesting aspect because just like your podcast I get to talk to so many founders and learn about their story and that's when we begin like the brainstorming process of like what are the actual stories here what are the stories that are kind of like evergreen stories which is something like starting you know a business as a side hustle and then it blowing up these

side hustle and then it blowing up these are evergreen stories they they always uh evoke emotion in people and then there are like the more trend trendy newsy stories which is like wait a second does this link to an actual trend right like if you if you did this are there other people who are also doing this or uh if you launched this product is it because so many people are struggling with this pain point so then we start zooming out and looking at looking at those trends we build the story angles you know um we obviously have media lists but then we try to refine the media lists I don't follow a spray and prey kind of outreach system or methods. Spray and praise is basically like send it to as many people as possible and then just pray that something sticks, right?

something sticks, right? That's not the method that I follow when it comes to pitching. At my agency, we follow a more targeted um method. So, if we're targeting a local media, the goal is that how do we get our client into this publication? And so, got it. It's not that I'm going to send the same pitch to like 100 people. I'm going to find the best person at that publication. If it's a smaller publication, there's potentially just one person who would cover the story like that and then really research that person and their beat very very deeply and then send that story to them. If it's a bigger publication, let's say like Forbes or Techrunch or something like that, there's a possibility that there are multiple people who can cover

there are multiple people who can cover it. So then you find the best few people, you research them, you make sure that the story is really tailored to their beat. You'd be surprised by the number of times journalists get story get stories which have nothing to do with their beat and that shows such a lack of research on the PR agencies or the you know in-house PR team's part. So that's something we want to avoid at all costs and then from there on it's kind of like a repetitive cycle obviously you keep figuring out new story angles reaching out new journalists. Um obviously now we live in the world in the kind of world where we're not only looking at publications, we're also looking at podcasts or substack newsletters as I said um you know trade publications. So then we repeat the whole process and um we we

repeat the whole process and um we we keep doing these brainstorming sessions with the client because we want to understand what new is happening in their industry and how can we use that for stories. So that's the ideal pathway and al also by the way this also involves that a client is involved in this process thinking that you can a PR agency and then forget about PR is not necessarily the right approach because at least initially the PR agency will need and not just an agency any PR professional consultant will need your input they you know ultimately it's your brand so you have to tell them what you want what do you want to be known for right that's also one of the questions I ask what do you want to be known for you

ask what do you want to be known for you know do you want to be known as the founder of this company you want to be known for something else like what do you want to be known for right and also [snorts] it's quite surprising how how um there are very few people who can very clearly answer what do they do it's such an open-ended question I completely understand but you know very few people can be very can be articulated and coherent about what is it that your company does you know what do you do tell me in the simplest way possible so I think in a way it's also like a very nice um um you know simplification exercise for the brand uh as well and yeah so the last thing I was

as well and yeah so the last thing I was saying is that we love clients who can be involved and who can um get back to us within deadlines you know the media industry is very deadline driven so you have to be in a lot of cases the first one to pitch or like the quickest one to pitch and that is the ideal wow Wow, that's so much like you're you're doing like I don't know seven different job titles from what it sounds like. Like there's I had just I'm just blown away more so than anything else just about the different hats that you have to wear when you do this cuz it's like you're strategizing, you have to do outreach which means you have to do marketing which there's just like so

marketing which there's just like so many layers to this which is so interesting to me and it is starting to make sense why actually before I say that do a lot of journalists later pivot into PR agencies type work. Is this a common pathway? Cuz it feels like it's built to be that way in many ways. Would you agree? Is that something that you've thought about? Um I think it would like if somebody's looking to transition out of journalism for whatever reason, I think it would be like a natural transition for sure. I do see it as a natural transition. Do a lot of people do it? I don't know. Um like if I just talk about my LinkedIn for example, I see a lot of people who are running either a PR agency or are you know very

either a PR agency or are you know very high level consultants, senior level consultants in the PR space and have been journalists. So um it is something that I see and I think um I think it's um it's it's something that like it gives people even like the clients that you work with it gives them more confidence when somebody has worked as a journalist. journalist. True. And I think maybe I'm wrong here but I think maybe it would also help when you're trying to pitch clients to have associations at that particular organization. Obviously, it doesn't have to be the person that you're pitching to, but if you know somebody in there that can like vouch for you, that can be like, "Okay, I know this person that they're not trying to sell us like snake

they're not trying to sell us like snake oil. This, you know, they're trustable." I think that can probably go a really long way. And the my favorite part about work like this is that the longer you're in it, the more your network develops and then the stronger your position becomes in terms of delivering value for your clients, right? Because this is not something like I could be a better strategist than you, a better writer than you, a better everything than you and still have nothing to show for it in like my first year of doing this versus, you know, a worse person than me at all of these skills, but that knows like the right people to reach out to at like various places. Is that an oversimplification? Cuz I I am worried that it is.

that it is. Um, I like how like self-aware you are with each question. No, I don't think it's an oversimplification. I mean uh that you definitely partially got it right that um knowing who to reach out to is definitely a skill to have in this industry because um because the kinds of like brands that we work with you know there is not always a very clear angle like there isn't always like oh this is a tech story you know sometimes it's in the tech industry but maybe it's a wellness story or maybe it's an entrepreneurship story right so if you reach out to a tech journalist that might not be the right person.

that might not be the right person. Maybe you have to reach out to a wellness journalist uh who covers tech or who covers like you know um tech products or something like that. So um so knowing who to reach out to yes like if you have done this enough you would know which person does what or you would at least have a fairly good idea of like this publication will be ideal for it and then within the publication you kind of know. Then the other side of it is like um relationships with journalists. journalists. Yeah. Yeah. So at least in North America uh the industry that I have worked in I mean the region that I have worked in um it's it's so of course if you work with a

it's so of course if you work with a journalist on multiple stories the relationship will build because they will see you as someone who brings them good sources and brings a good story. However, I will say this and I always even maintain this on my LinkedIn and I read this from so many senior level professionals in this uh industry that um you know nothing beats a story in this in the PR industry nothing beats a story like a jour like a good story that has a good subject line because it's sent by email and um you've researched the journalist and you've written the headline in the style of the publication and you've given like a one or two paragraph pitch uh with who is the source and why this story matters.

source and why this story matters. That will always go far beyond than uh just having an in with just having uh just having an in with the journalist because I mean the it can get a journalist to open your email because they know you. Um Um and the good part is that if you repeatedly pitch great stories and a journalist does those stories then they start associating you with professionalism and with somebody who always has great stories. But that doesn't mean that there won't be a time when you don't have a great right like there will be a time when your story is not that great or it doesn't work in the journalist's schedule for that month or whatever or there is intense breaking news that's happening in the world and

news that's happening in the world and the journalist just can't do your story. So there are so many u factors outside of a PR professional's control that happen in the journalism industry because PR is just half of it right I'm pitching the story but the journalist has to accept the story to do it and I don't know what's happening in the journalist's life so in that sense having been a journalist really helps because every time I'm pitching a story so one thing people don't know um is that a journalist also has to pitch the story to their editor that's Right. Yeah. You know, most publications have pitch meetings where the journalist will now pitch the story. Now, imagine being in a pitch meeting where it's like multiple people are pitching and you're one of

people are pitching and you're one of the journalists who is pitching. How much time can you realistically take to pitch your story? You know, like under one minute. So, can you boil down your story into that pitch where a journalist can talk about it in one minute and the editor will get interested and the story will be done, right? Like so that's a visualizing exercise that helps so much when I'm pitching because sometimes I'll be like oh my god this is such an exciting story and I will keep writing and writing and then I'll be like wait a second but the journalist just is going to look at it for like not even 30 seconds so I need to shorten this. This is not going to work. So that is very

is not going to work. So that is very helpful. That's where my newsroom experience comes in um and always kind of rescues me from sending like long or you know non- newsworthy pitches. So I would say nothing beats a story. Um it's it's good to have journalist relationships and they do help you help your email get opened uh your name get recognized. Um you know I also like while I do uh while I work in PR I also do PR for myself if that's what you want to call it. But I also write personal essays for business insider and they don't really have much to do with my PR journey. There can be anything like the most recent one I wrote is like how I relocated. Um

relocated. Um I saw that it appeared on my feed earlier today actually. I I was seeing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't read it yet, but I'm planning. So that's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. So um so I know that a relocation story has to be pitched to a certain type of journalist and I work with this journalist and and the editor that I work with, by the way, she's amazing. Um and I love working with her. But I also know that if I pitch her a story that does not fall in her beat or is not good for her editor or is not you know uh newsworthy she will say no. So, right, right. I think it's always a very good balance

I think it's always a very good balance to maintain. Keep it super professional. Work on those relationships. Um, send a journalist, you know, a kudos when you read a good story without expecting anything in return without pitching anything. It's it's if you read a good story, which all PR professionals should be doing. They should be like reading the news every day and like reading stories. Um, you know, we we rarely ever take the time to just send a journalist saying like, "Loved your story. like it was so meaningful or like loved this insight um you know without saying here's my client and would you be able to look at this pitch right so uh yes I think you should value relationships no matter which industry you work in um but specifically

industry you work in um but specifically in the PR industry nothing gets you as far as a story does yeah wow so basically long story short um my thing was an oversimplification as I had suspected um but no I think you very rightly identified that um if somebody knows who is the right person to reach out to because beats really matter in the journalism industry then they will have a leg up you know um yeah true but as you said it's not like just that is not going to get you there right like you still have to do the work it still has to be high quality it still has to be relevant there's like six

has to be relevant there's like six other constraints yeah around that which that that I was thinking maybe we can just bypass that cuz you're my friend. But obviously that that that Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. He's not in North America though, right? Hopefully hopefully anywhere in the world, right? But you know, it's hard to say obviously cuz you know you're not aware. aware. Last question here before I let you go.

Last question here before I let you go. If you could go back in time and tell the Vali that existed three years ago when you were just like doing your agency full-time as like a business properly. What would be the one thing that you know now that she did not know that you would want to tell her? I thought I'd have to think about this more, but I actually have a good answer. And that is stop saying things just to please your clients or like stop pleasing your clients. That's not your [clears throat] job. Your job is to do your job and that will be enough to um that will speak itself to the clients, right? like um when you're running a business, when you're an entrepreneur u and I think even like as a personality

and I think even like as a personality trait, sometimes we tend to say things because we know that this would make the other person feel more satisfied or pleased with your work. Um, and I realized that as I grow older and build more confidence about not just my work, but even myself and um like really develop a stronger sense of self, it's really not necessary to um say something that the other person wants to hear just for the sake of it. Uh and a really good example of this is um you know a lot of people a lot of brands clients they do ask um so what can you guarantee like can you guarantee coverage um and the answer is no the you know the simple answer is no because as I told you my job is half the job everything

you my job is half the job everything else rests with the journalist and there is breaking news there is a lot that's happening in the newsroom that I don't have any control over and no PR agency does so it's like a running joke that if a PR agency tells you they can guarantee coverage then you should you know run away from them because no PR agency can guarantee right and and that's even where we started this conversation right where we were being guaranteed right right so that that like oh $9.99 for forms no absolutely not like report spam like for sure that's not going to work um but yeah that that's what I would tell myself um yeah your job is to do your job it is not to please the clients. So that's awesome. And you know, it's so

that's awesome. And you know, it's so interesting and this is part of why I love this show so much is that I can think of like 20 other conversations I've had with completely unrelated professions and industries where they've said something that if you take it upstream and remove the context of PR and journalism and all all of these things, this is like a truth thread that runs through so many of the conversations I've had and it's it just continues to blow my mind how similar everything is in reality. Like we love to think that, you know, everything's very different and it's like I'm we're unique and such, but the complete opposite view to that.

but the complete opposite view to that. It's like two sides of the same coin. We're in effect really um all the same just depending on whichever you prescribe to. So just kind of wanted to drop that in there. But Vashali, this has been so incredible. I can't believe just how much information I've learned just in this past hour. And I want to commend you for opening up this door to a universe that I didn't even know existed in a way that I was able to completely, you know, relate, follow along, understand. And I'm sure all of our listeners are, you know, feeling just as grateful as of this moment. for those of us that want to reach out to you in in relation to getting some earned PR quality quality stuff that you

earned PR quality quality stuff that you provide. What would be the best way to reach out to you outside of your LinkedIn which I will link in the description? Is there any other place that you would prefer to be contacted? Yeah. Uh absolutely. Thanks for saying all of that. I'm I'm very touched by everything that you said and honestly it's been a great conversation. And I think your the quality of questions uh was amazing and uh it just helped us get into a conversation without feeling like we had to say something or follow a script. So I'm I'm very very grateful for that. Thank you so much.

for that. Thank you so much. Um yes. So to get in touch with me um uh although I'm very active on LinkedIn but other than that my email which is vashalvesia.com vashalvesia.com pretty simple and my website is vashalmedia.com. vashalmedia.com. So these are the best ways to get in touch with me and um I really hope that some people do and even if it's just to say a hi I'm I'm very open to connect.

say a hi I'm I'm very open to connect. Awesome. Thank you so much Vashali. I will make sure that I link those as well and obviously they will all also be in the transcript and such for folks to reach out. So yeah thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you. Thanks Nam.