How To Forge A Career in Forensic Science (Your Fav Crime Show Prob Lied To You) - w/ Sara

The body was found in this rural area. There was no evidence in that area where the body was found that a struggle had taken place. What they did was use forensic anthmology and polology. So pollinology is using like spores and pollen in a forensic setting. What they found was that I'm naman Pandi and in this episode feature not expert is Sarah Gomez. Sarah is a forensic science graduate from University College London with experience as a forensic biology research intern at the New York City office of chief medical examiner. The CO 19 pandmic happened. So I was spend my days quarantining and watching true crime documentaries. Did you ever cover the deduction side of the house or is that something that falls outside the wheelhouse of the forensic science? Wow.

wheelhouse of the forensic science? Wow. So you go and dust a fingerprint and you'd get it. Yeah. And you shine that ultraviolet light that shows all where all the blood was. Real light in the sense that you never get a full beautiful fingerprint on the door handle. We go over Sarah's journey through getting a master's degree in this absolutely fascinating domain. The subject matter the degree covers absolutely crazy technology that's available in most for insect science labs. Also debunks so many myths that shows such as CSI and C perpetuated over the years. I would read some basics and come home and just don't know what to do with myself. Why do I decompress? You know, in line with our theme of learning from somebody just two steps ahead instead of an expert, my goal is to

instead of an expert, my goal is to highlight this amazing career track and how you can forge a career also in the forensic sciences. This is the Ready SEU podcast and subscribe for weekly episodes and daily clips featuring not experts from every field ever. And now without any further ado, my friends, here's Sarah. Welcome to the Ready Set Do podcast where we learn from journeys of not experts who are just two steps ahead of us. Sarah, welcome. Hi, thank you for having me. Really excited to jump into the fascinating world of forensics and hopefully in a manner that is, you know, slightly more informed than my very limited understanding that has come out of watching just some random shows here and there and a lot of Sherlock Holmes. So, so both outdated and misinformed here is is what you're

and misinformed here is is what you're working with. So, you know, just to get that out of the way, but to to start off, um what made you first get interested in this field and can you walk us through um you realizing that this is actually what I want to do in terms of a professional career? Yes. Yes, of course. I it all started during 2020. I was quite lost in what I wanted to do. I was currently pursuing a degree in neuroscience with a minor in economics. Um I didn't really know what neuroscience was before I joined and then halfway through I was like maybe this is not for me. So I tried with my economics minor you know maybe I wasn't a science person maybe I just needed to

a science person maybe I just needed to be in a completely different field. Um I also did not really enjoy that. So so I was feeling quite lost at that point. Um, and then the, you know, the COVID 19 pandemic happened and we were locked down at home and I just had a lot of time to to do be on the internet, right, like everyone else. And I found myself gravitating towards true crime a lot.

gravitating towards true crime a lot. So, I was spend my days quarantining and watching true crime documentaries and I couldn't stop. What were some of your favorite ones? Like what was the most watched show in that era? I watched probably every single like serial killer documentary on Netflix. I loved all of them. Um, so I watched all of them and then I had an intrusive thought of what if I just do this for a living. Like I really like enjoy watching them. So what if I just do it every day for a living and I and become part of it, right?

and I and become part of it, right? Yeah. And I actually went through with it. I was like okay I think I think this is something I want to do. And you know during that period of time everything felt felt so like like final and like transcendental like everything felt like it was most more purposeful and I just said I need to do this. I like it. So I decided to then after finishing my undergrad to pursue a master's in forensic science. Awesome.

master's in forensic science. Awesome. So just a quick follow up on what you said earlier. Something that caught my curiosity was you said you had started studying neuroscience but um kind of didn't really like it that much. So I'm wondering where that gap came from. So I guess I'm trying to understand what was the um what was the specific thing around neuroscience that you thought would be different uh than what it turned out to be. Does that kind of make sense? Yes. Yes. No, that makes sense. I think initially I I'm always been interested in human behavior and why people do the things they do and why they act the way they do. So I thought neuroscience would give me more of an understanding of of people

me more of an understanding of of people that I it would help me understand people from a scientific point of view rather than you know like a social point of view. Yeah. And I didn't really get that out of my program. It felt like a lot of the stuff that we were learning and working towards was very preclinical trial was mostly focused on medicine rather than than what I I wanted to get out of it. Yeah. Okay. No, that makes total sense. And the reason I asked was I had a bit of a similarish journey where um back in high school I really wanted to be a doctor. So I was like you know yeah sure I'll study biology you know it's just biology. But turns out what nobody told me at the

turns out what nobody told me at the time was that when they say biology like 40% of it is just plant stuff. Yeah. you know, and and I was like, "Oh my gosh, how is learning about the 16 different steps in photosynthesis ever going to help me treat humans and their diseases? Why am I studying this?" And obviously, suffice to say, I pivoted to tech, which is the exact opposite direction of of biology. But but I can relate to what you're saying where you have a certain perception of an idea when it comes to a degree and then when you start it's just nothing like what you had hoped. So um glad you were able to jump out from there. I'm kind of interested in exploring um what can you give us like a

exploring um what can you give us like a just a very brief flavor of kind of the various type of programs that exist or is it just like the main um common single program around forensics that's pretty common across the world and then how you went about shortlisting where you wanted to get that master. Yes. So forensic science um it's quite a straightforward path. In the US there is um forensic science masters. I think there's a couple of universities that do as undergrad programs um but I'm not very sure about that. I know there's a few um masters program not many options but they're usually a two-year program and they prepare you with the science side of it. I think there's also a few programs especially in George Washington

programs especially in George Washington University down in Washington DC that has more of like the social science side of it. Um but I personally decided to go abroad for my program. I did my master's in crime in forensic science at University College London. Um I I was between that program in UCL. There's also King's College in London that also has a forensic science program and George Washington. So I was either I want stay here and stay in the US, move to Washington DC or go abroad. I ended up going abroad for a few different reasons. Would you like me to get into that? Yeah, I would love to explore those. Yeah. Okay. So, first of all, in the masters in the US are two year programs and you have a long summer

year programs and you have a long summer break in between. Programs in the UK are one year generally and intense one year. So, like 12 months, very short breaks if at all. Right. time-wise, I felt like it was easier for me to commit to a one-year program, especially because I, you know, this was an idea that came out of almost nowhere, I want to say. So, yeah, making a two-year commitment for an intrusive thought, you know, it felt, it felt a bit much. So, I think in my mind was easier to rationalize just going for one year program. So, that that was a moving force. I also wanted to have a cultural exchange and and study abroad experience and that was important to me. And ultimately financially it made sense also to okay

financially it made sense also to okay to go abroad because I was only going to spend one year of rent and food and travel you know tuition compared to two years uh in the US. Interesting. And some something that I've seen just generally with study abroad stuff is that for a lot of programs that are one year because they are their tuition is so um I guess they just price the per credit cost in a very you know sketchy not sketchy but kind of a under the curtain manner so that it kind of becomes the same but it it sounds like in this case there was like a difference between the 2-year and the one-year program in the US and UK just to confirm. Yes. Yeah. And so um it came out let's say slightly more

um it came out let's say slightly more affordable to go to the UK not a huge change but I think I see when you factor in you know transportation and rent and and the time right a whole year is a lot of time that I'm sure I I know you you're going to be starting working and we'll get into that in just a second but yeah you would probably still be stuck in college if you hadn't gone for that and wouldn't be able to recoup your investments um as soon as you're being able to currently. So appreciate that deep dive that makes a lot of sense and and then so from there naturally very

and then so from there naturally very curious to learn about and this is something that again I didn't let my intrusive thought ever get to the the degree that yours did which I commend you for but I have always wondered what is it like to study. So basically just looking for what it is that you were taught just broad level and then maybe if you can share one or two specially like any courses that were especially good that left a mark on you that you were like wow that's so cool you know that that would be wonderful. Yeah.

that that would be wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. So I think forensics even though it's um a very niche field it also has a lot of specialtities within it broadly you know forensic science is is more of the study of factors that contribute to crime includes you know crime prevention detection all of this. So in my specific course, we studied the the theory of crime, why crime happens, you know, but we also go into the science of it. So that's the science that includes the biology, the chemistry, um the geology, you know, these other smaller areas that cross over with traditional, you know, natural sciences.

traditional, you know, natural sciences. Um, so for example, there's courses. The one I personally enjoyed the most was CSI. So, you know, it reminds you of Yeah. traditional forensic files and like Yeah. Remind me what that stands for. Like what's the full pump? Sorry. Yeah. So, CSI stands for crime scene investigation. Right. Right. That's right. So, it entails going out to the crime scene and physically collecting evidence. Wow. Wow. And yeah. Yeah. I loved that. I feel like I was in a movie. Got that class. You had a hazmos suits and the masks and the evidence bags that you have to put the single hair strand and all this stuff. I I absolutely loved it and I think ultimately that's where I want my career to to go. So that's something I I enjoy

to to go. So that's something I I enjoy quite a bit. And then for for that same course I guess is there both a theory and practical component or is it is the entire course just a bunch of practical experiments kind of um there are both sides to it. Um there's a theory in the sense of there are processes that you have to follow in in order to collect evidence and I see in a sense that in a way that it's going to be acceptable by court. Um, but there's also a practical side of it when you go into a mock scene and collect evidence. Got it. And did you ever cover, you know, just stuff on the what's the word? The deduction side of the house or is that something that

of the house or is that something that falls outside the wheelhouse of forensic science? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a really good question because that was something that I was um looking for in my program and that ultimately helped me decide between King's College and UCL. I see. Um King's College was focused primarily on the science and just doing what you need to do with that evidence. Um but UCL was a bit more inclusive in their program in the sense that they wanted you to have like the intelligence side of it and more of the investigation side as well as the science. Um so we did get a bit of that.

science. Um so we did get a bit of that. There are optional modules you can take on counterterrorism and like crime prevention um intelligence and all this stuff. Counter intelligence. Uh that's that's so cool. And do they also teach you stuff that goes on in the laboratory itself? Like so you mentioned that you have that single strand of hair. Do they also teach you how or what to do with that? Like when you put it under the microscope or something? I don't know if this is something you do, but um I didn't specifically go into that.

um I didn't specifically go into that. Okay. But you could have we do more of the theory. Yeah. not so much of like going ourselves into the lab and learning those things is it's more in the theory side and so because you mentioned theory do they also have these so like for example personally I went to like a business school right so the way they teach business there is they bring up cases in the past that uh you know in such and such year this company faced this problem so they did this and this is such a important lesson to know that you can then apply that to other problems like this that appear in the future So do you have this in like the forensics um you know broader umbrella

forensics um you know broader umbrella where there are some really famous cases that you come across again and again which are used as a you know learning method for students or is that not something that happen? Yes. Yes, it definitely happens because um forensics is sort of a practitioner-led discipline where all the new innovations happen as a response to to difficulties and challenges that practitioners face. So we study all of our historical data to see patterns, you know, patterns in crime and layers in science and behavior. So I would say most of the forensic science discipline right now is has come out from from history and historical cases. Yeah. So that's very fascinating to me. Do you have maybe a case or two that comes to mind that stuck with you in that okay that was a

stuck with you in that okay that was a cool case that you know anybody listening would be able to you know be able to understand or relate to. Yeah. Yeah. That was a very interesting case. Um, not sure about details, but I vaguely remember it because I I wrote a paper on it. I thought it was the coolest thing I've ever heard in my life. Love it. Let's So, that was a case um about a murder that um happened I think in Europe and was was long time ago. So the body was found in this rural area and kind of just left there to decompose hopefully I guess. Um so it was found but they weren't sure what had happened, how did it happen, where there was no evidence in that area where the body was found that a struggle had taken place. Um there's certain patterns in,

place. Um there's certain patterns in, you know, blood spatter or disturbance of the area that you would expect where you have crimes, especially if they're violent. Um you would expect to see certain things that weren't there. So they were like, "Okay, what what happened here? Was it a cleanup?" But it just looked undisturbed, like the grass around it was not stepped on. So what they did was use forensic enthmology and pollinology. So pollen energy is using like spores and pollen in a forensic setting. So what they did was take swabs from the inside of the nose of this the corpse the body and match it to the vegetation in that area. And when they what they found was that the person the last place where that person has been breathing had been breathing before was

breathing had been breathing before was not where the body was found because the spores and the pollen did not match the vegetation. So they found that that body had been moved after that and they had very accurate information of the um topography in that area, the what kind of trees grow in what place and they were able to then match like pinpoint the place where that person had passed away. And I just saw I I would have never that would have never crossed my mind. I didn't know that was a thing.

my mind. I didn't know that was a thing. Yeah. I mean seriously who who would think that unless you're literally Sherlock Holmes or somebody but so I guess from that story is it the job of the forensics actually first of all what are you all called are you the forensics expert or what's the term you know like what would you be a forensic scientist I would say scientist okay perfect so is it then the job of the forensics forensics scientist to swap the nose and then come up with this plan or is it like the detective that tells him that hey I need you to find the spores or pollen from the nose of this car does that make sense like whose responsibility is it that yeah now that makes sense um I would say it's a joint

makes sense um I would say it's a joint effort I think the forensic scientist would be the primary responsible because we have the training in this we know what technology is available um so I think the forensic scientist is in a position to suggest uh a lot of these tests but it depends on the politics of each department. Absolutely. Each you know Yeah. I mean there's fiction. Exactly. Yeah. There's always moving parts but so it sounds like there can be disagreements sometimes between the forensic scientist and the you know detective or whoever police person is in charge. Yeah. Yeah.

police person is in charge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. Um, these situations can happen, but ultimately a forensic scientist wants to collect as much information as possible and then the detective can decide what of which evidence and what pieces of it to use, but it's better to have more, right? It's always better to have more than than less. Cool. Cool. So, we we covered um you know some of the main subjects that you liked which included uh crime.

that you liked which included uh crime. So the theory of crime uh all of the other factors associated with that you also covered the laboratory aspect of its CSI um any other you know courses slash um experiences that stood out from your time at during your masters. Um I think overall I had a very positive experience with within my masters. I think something that contribute was that my class was very small and that's something I really appreciated. I think my graduating class is about 21. Wow.

my graduating class is about 21. Wow. People. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So, I I got chance to collaborate um with my professors, get to really know their research, what they work on, what they're passionate about, and it really made a difference um for myself. Um for example, in my during my dissertation, I wrote my thesis on digital forensic science. science. So, I focus on using the call detail records that your provider logs every time you make a call or send a text, you know, every time you connect to a cell tower that is logged by your provider.

tower that is logged by your provider. Um, so what I wanted to use to do is use this records to triangulate location of a device at the time of a crime. So, if someone commits a crime at 3:00 p.m. today, then I can go back and see where their phone was at 3:00 p.m. And even if they weren't making a call, you could tell Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Cool.

tell Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Cool. Yeah. Um, and I and I only got to do this because my program was so small. I got to know a professor who has done worked in this area before and he had connections or contacts in the provider in the UK like the digital forensic provider in the UK who was also open to collaborate with me. So all these connections I was only able to make because I had such small class size I think. Amazing. And then are internships a thing in these masters or is it kind of a one and done type of thing? Um there are no internships during this masters because it is so intensive. Um there are no gaps. So usually in the US

there are no gaps. So usually in the US people will have summer internships and then but no not in this program. Got it. And so did you then get a chance or since you've graduated have you gotten a chance to professionally apply any of these skills that you've learned during your masters? Um, no yet, but I'm looking forward to uh hopefully starting soon. Yeah, exactly. And so I guess so that kind of leaves the door open, right, to um what kind of roles/what type of organizations? So are you kind of limited to the you know I mean I think it is the government in one form or the other or actually that's not true. I think there are some security or private security agencies but actually

private security agencies but actually can you help paint a picture for what type of jobs kind of open up once you have a degree in forensic scientist? Yes. Um it is it is a small job market for forensic scientists and and I have to be completely transparent about it because I feel like I'm selling a Netflix documentary here. That sounds really fun. But I have to be very honest about the job market which is tight. So in the US um forensic science is provided by the state or the federal government. So at least in New York City which is where where I'm based um there is no private industry for forensic science. So my job opportunities are based on federal you know FBI, CIA, DEA related acronym places

related acronym places and also the state or the city government. Um if you want to do like straight forensic science, you know, forensic biology where you're in the lab with the fingerprints, the hair, all of this is um city government based jobs. um if you Yeah. I don't really know how you can use this masters specifically in the private industry. Yeah. Yeah. So I will you know clarify when I first asked that question I didn't realize that if you're doing forensics there's probably crime involved in some way or the other.

crime involved in some way or the other. I mean for the most part right and then it's all crime. Yeah. Yeah. So and if there is crime then I don't think there is any private institution that has access or jurisdiction to you know investigate that like that has to be a law law enforcement what you're saying you know you know definitely checks out and so and but the process of applying is the same you just kind of go on these government websites or you know try and come up with connections etc on LinkedIn and reach out to them and kind of see how it goes or are there like you have to write a paper or something, you know, get that look like um it looks like a

get that look like um it looks like a traditional job hunting search that you go on government websites and fill out forms and hope for the best. Got it. Yeah, traditionally. Yeah. And then in your masters, do they also kind of put you, you know, in like real life simulations of what it will be like once you're, you know, working in the field full-time or maybe have you talked to, uh, you know, any person that has been doing this, you know, for a really long time to kind of pick their brain around how it all goes by chance, just on the field itself? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. We we're very fortunate to have a lot of outside um practitioners coming to talk to us and participate and collaborate during lectures. So we have heard from people who have been in the

heard from people who have been in the field for a while and people who have been in the field for not that long as well. So um it it looks it looks good at the other end. you know it you can really see people that they are very passionate and they love what they do and they love having tangible impact in society. Um and that that's enough for me. No, absolutely. There's I I can think of very few ways to make you know an impact like this um than the one you are and having come kind of full circle where you started with watching all these shows and then you went ahead and you know upskilled yourself at you know in a foreign country got your degree

in a foreign country got your degree graduated and now now knowing what you know um would you say that the usual depictions of forensics in in our pop culture you know, TV shows, movies, are they mostly accurate or can you tell us some things that they all get just completely wrong and you're like, "This is not how this happens." All of them get this wrong, you know? Yeah. Yeah. No, I get that a lot. Um people are like, "Wow, so you go and dust the fingerprint. Get it and you shine that ultraviolet light that shows all where all the blood was and Right. Right. stuff like that. No, it's it's it's not very much like in real life. Um, in the sense that you never get a full beautiful fingerprint on the door handle. You never get a full

on the door handle. You never get a full hair strand with the root attached. It's never the the murder weapon is never just laying around covering blood. You know, you don't really see this. It's it's not a quick process. It's not just an in and out. You go crime scene. all the evidence is lined up for you with beautiful yellow numbers and you collect that and leave. It's it's a very um time consuming process to to go. I think it's also not depicted the emotional stress that comes along with performing this jobs. You are seeing the worst of society day in and day out and it really wears on you. Um, I think you need to have a very specific personality to be

have a very specific personality to be able to cope with all the stress and the negativity that you're surrounded in this field. And I think that's something that people don't see on TV shows. I want to explore that what you said about that personality a little bit. What is that? And I and I know obviously it won't be a one direct answer but what are some of the character characteristic traits that generally belong to that personality of that type of person that does really well in these type of situations? situations? Yes. I think people who last long in this field are people who are able to um um compartmentalize their job in their personal lives because you want to be able to perform your best at job where you're at work. But you also need to be

you're at work. But you also need to be able to leave work and leave work behind. like when you step out of the office, you need to go back to being yourself and doing the things that make you happy and spending time with the people you love. And and that's that's not easy. You know, sometimes I think that's also a learned skill. I think that's something that you don't really need in many other areas of your life and many other fields. So part of it is learned, but um not everyone can learn it, right? Is that something you've started working towards or where do you stand personally when it comes to that teaching yourself how to compartmentalize?

how to compartmentalize? I think um I'm in the process of it. I'm definitely feel like I've been getting better and better. It also I guess has helped me that I watch and consume so much true crime. So, I'm a little more desensitized than the average public, you know, and the average person. Yeah. And I'm kind of able to to approach crime and approach these situations from a clinical point of view and a very scientific point of view where it's like, okay, my goal is to find this, is to do this, and I just work towards that goal. I reached that goal. Okay, that was done and close. let's move on to the next. And I I'm in the process still sometimes happens that I you know I

sometimes happens that I you know I would read things I would see things during my masters that I go to bed at night I'm like oh I don't want to think about this anymore. Why am I there about this? Um it's a process. Yeah. Absolutely. It almost reminds me of the of doctors you know they kind of have to do something similar where you it's just a body to you. You you can't think of that as a you know as a mother a father of somebody. It's just a body because once you get emotionally invested that probably starts to interfere with how how good of a job you can do in that situation and you only exist to do the

situation and you only exist to do the best job that you can in the first place. Right. So would you say that parallel kind of holds true or not really? Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I think that's a good way to put it. I think um because doctors also encounter so many emotionally stressful situations. I think you have uh it's a tricky balance. You need empathy and you need to remember that you know you need to do your best for this person but you can't put yourself in their shoes. Exactly.

put yourself in their shoes. Exactly. And something else you said a while back kind of piqu my curiosity. you said you almost never find a complete fingerprint or you know like a complete like strand of hair. So from there I'm trying to understand that I'm sure there must be um so much technology that the outside world doesn't really know about when it comes to specifically the forensic sciences. So can you are you able to shed some light on what type of tools or maybe technologies of any sort really? I use technologies as a very big broad umbrella term that might exist out there that you have seen or used or have heard of but that would surprise the average listener and such as you know such as myself because I'm obviously not from

myself because I'm obviously not from this field. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think um let me think technologist there there's so many I'm only familiar with. Yeah. Yeah. Um, some that I've used before, like for example, during my internship um, in the office of the chief medical examiner, I was part of the forensic biology department as a researcher and I got to use a machine that can separate female from male DNA. It's used in cases of sexual assault and it's so powerful that it can pick up on only a few cells.

that it can pick up on only a few cells. So you don't need a full, you know, drop of blood or bodily fluid or anything. It can separate cells at quantities that are almost incomprehensible for us. Wow. And I was blown away. Wow. Huh. I mean, I don't even know how to start thinking of that, but sorry, I'm just a little confused. Uh, so you said this was at your internship. Yeah, that that you were doing. Got Sorry. Yeah, I thought Yeah. Um, so remember when I asked if you had gotten the chance to apply this in a professional field. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Sorry. So, little come back to Yeah. So, yeah, I would love to explore.

Yeah. So, yeah, I would love to explore. So obviously let's start here in terms of the this machine. So just so I understand what you're saying is you put in just say you find like a blood droplet and you can just I guess what does this machine look like? Is it kind of like a little cup or Yeah. Yes. Yes. So um I did this internship between my um bachelor's and my masters during that summer. It was before I went to to do my masters. I understood. I would write a lot though too. I had no clue what I was doing. doing. But um so I was researching different kits like let's say kids u sexual assault kits that are used to um kind of separate you know the

used to um kind of separate you know the female DNA from male DNA and then use that male DNA to extract a DNA profile to with potentials per right so if you get a DNA profile you can then upload it to a national database called Kodis and every um everyone who's been to jail is in this database, you know. So that's a way that they use this DNA profile to see if there's a match or not. Um so this machine going back to it, it looks like an old printer kind of.

like an old printer kind of. Okay. And imagine you're opening the the lid of it and then it's a bunch of little holes and that's where you're going to put your test tubes in. Got it? You close it and you click and it just does the magic. You get a report from it. That is so cool. I I can't believe this cuz in my mind anything related to DNA consists or starts and ends with at least, you know, a microscope. like I cannot comprehend that you there there's no microscopes involved in this entire program. Yeah. Yeah. And that that like you know shockingly is for me the most uh crazy aspect of all of this. So that's really cool. That is exactly the type of cool tech that I was yes looking

type of cool tech that I was yes looking to explore. I guess to to give you a better idea. So what you get in a sexual assault kit from the hospital is swaps, just cotton swabs. And then from that cotton swab, you are going to prepare a mixture. So you're going to cut a piece of it, put in a test tube, add different component, you know, different chemicals to it to kind of like break down the skin or like the cell barrier, release the DNA, all of this. But you're using pipets. At no point you're really using a microscope. Got um so you're doing all of these in test tubes and then those test tubes you're going to put in the machine and get a profile out of that.

machine and get a profile out of that. I mean a part of me is obviously you know just kind of saddened by the fact that this needs to be done especially because of the subject of you know kids that are assaulted sexually. But on the other hand, you know, it is you still have to do it cuz obviously they need to get justice like you you can't just um leave that be. So um how was that experience like for you? And it sounded like especially around this time you weren't even sure that you wanted to do a masters and such. So how was that like for you? It was difficult. It was very eyeopening. eyeopening. Um again I I didn't really know what I was getting into. I knew this was a

was getting into. I knew this was a topic that I was interested in, but my only knowledge of it was from media. So going into this um internship, it was a reality check. It was like, you know, it's always been stories on the screen, but now there are real people to this. There are names attached to it, their addresses, their ages, their things that just make you realize these are lives. These are people, real people. And then it really hits home when you see maybe that a crime happened at an address or that you've been at that you've passed before you walked or is near someone you love or like yeah, it's someone age that reminds you of someone and then you really make that connection of holy holy this is this is real. And I had that that moment of realization. And I

that that moment of realization. And I think a lot of people would have run the other way and go back to like a neuroscience job. And but I think it just made me want to be there even more. And now I felt like it was my responsibility to do something about it and be part of the solution. Exactly. But it definitely um it was very hard for me to do this thing we were talking about compartmentalizing and right I would leave you know read these stories you because you have access to like police reports and stuff so I would read some of these things and come home and just don't know what to do with myself man how how do I decompress you know yeah like how have you decompressed from that you know it's just the I had to

that you know it's just the I had to ground myself and then remind myself my coping mechanisms and the things I love and that bring me happiness and it and it worked and eventually I got better and better at it. A little bit of a meta question I guess, but has your perspective of the world changed for the better or the worse from your gaining expertise in this field just and just really around crime in general? Are you more of a skeptic now or are you more of an optimist or has there been no change in your general overview of the world itself? Yeah. Yeah. I I think I wish I could say I'm positive and optimistic, but not really. I think I just see the worst in society and I see

just see the worst in society and I see the worst in people and I the work never ends. Like there every day there's something else. every day there's something new. So, it's definitely made me a lot more aware of what's out there for good or for bad. Um, but I think just and and maybe it might, you know, be a selfish reason, but feeling like I'm doing and part of the solution, it just makes me feel good about myself and like, okay, at least I'm doing something. But deep down I'm like, "Oh my goodness, this world is messed up." I mean, so what you said around the selfish, I I feel like it's perfectly okay to be selfish if it helps the world and other people, you know. I feel like that's completely fine, but obviously that's a very small part of what you

that's a very small part of what you just said. And I really appreciate and admire your not only your honesty cuz I don't know if I would be able to um admit that but clearly you have and it shows that you've done your introspection you're self-aware enough to know that you know it's a challenge that you face but you also know why you do it right and I think that why is what drives you which is really cool to me and also you had shared earlier that during your masters you met other people, your mentors that have literally devoted their whole lives to this and I could tell that you look up to them and you see yourself doing what they did with their lives and you know what else

with their lives and you know what else is the point of any work other than to you know leave leave a lasting impression and hopefully leave the world better than than we found it. So yeah, um again not to go off on too much of a tangent, but last question here before I let you go is um how have you um how let you go is um how have you navigated your entire professional journey across two continents now uh while not being a native uh you know English speaker? Has that opened or has you have you had to struggle with some closed doors that exist for people that don't speak English natively? And if so, how have you navigated? Yeah, I think um that's that's a really good question. It's been

that's a really good question. It's been a challenge. Um I moved to the United States when I was 15. So I was the first one in my family to navigate higher education in the US and abroad in the UK as well. So I I didn't have a familiar figure telling me how to do things, where to start, who to ask help.

where to start, who to ask help. form like just nothing. So I think I had to do that myself. I had to go to people. I have to be very proactive in my journey. And it wasn't without challenges. I I was very introverted when I was younger. I was very shy and very self-conscious of my accent and just my story kind of. So I had to step out and break out of my shell and just ask for help. Um I happened to come across very helpful people in my journey that have believed in me. Um one of them being my supervisor during my undergrad. She was the director of the neuroscience program and she supported me through my entire time there and then supported me when I

time there and then supported me when I shared that I wanted to do forensics afterwards. Um she completely believed in me and offer me her like help in anything. Um I also like came across very helpful people during my internship. uh people who gave me the opportunity to go to the office of the chief medical examiner just just from reading my resume like believing in me. Yeah, that's I had no no one to back me. I was new. So, uh they gave me a chance and and I think I wouldn't have pursued this career without them, you know.

without them, you know. So, it was it was very challenging for sure. But asking for help was always my best friend. I was not ashame anymore. I was like, "Help me someone, please. I'll do my part. Just tell me where to go, where to start." That's actually such great advice. It's just, you know, along the lines of close mouths, never get fed, you know, like if you don't ask for help, you of course you're not going to get it. But look at how it panned out for you. because you asked for help, because you know some stranger took a chance on you, you were able to deliver the work for them that they wanted, you were able to help, you know, children that needed the most help probably and you know, in the whole world. So yeah, I

you know, in the whole world. So yeah, I mean for I I do a lot of these, but seldom do I feel at at the end of one of these conversations. Um just so so much more richer in terms of my understanding of, you know, really just the world, but also just all of the moving parts that are involved with undergoing something like you did where you just start with this idea that, hey, that looks cool.

this idea that, hey, that looks cool. How crazy would it be if I did it, you know, and then you actually went ahead and did it, which I feel like, yeah, it's so on point for the whole theme of this podcast, which is that, you know, just start like just take that first step. Everything else will, you know, fall into place. It's all about, you know, just the do aspect of it rather than waiting for the waiting for somebody to say that he said go, you know, instead just that he said do. So um really thank want to thank you for taking the time here today to share your experiences with us to share your journey with us and really looking forward to you know the amazing work that you'll be doing um and through remaining connected with you uh on

remaining connected with you uh on LinkedIn and elsewhere and hopefully maybe like you know a guest appearance down the road in one of those shows that kickstarted this whole journey for you. Of course thank you so much for for listening to my story. That brings us to the end of that episode with Sarah Gomez. I was just blown away by how much she shared and especially that example around how they found the murderer for that corpse using pollen tracing. That was crazy. Thank you all for sharing these episodes with those that continue to benefit from them. If you would like to support me, the easiest way to do that is by subscribing on my YouTube channel and leaving me up to a fivestar rating on Spotify or any of your favorite podcast apps. Catch you all in

favorite podcast apps. Catch you all in the next one. New episodes every Wednesday.