How To Break Into Product Management Without Any Prior Experience - w/ Jackie

threshold is the amount of product experience you need before you start looking interesting to recruiters. So then the question becomes how do you get to that threshold level of experience needed? Imagine a recruiter reading the following line on your resume that built and launched such and such app with 36,000 downloads. I mean that's a slam dunk right there as a student. Those are four different things that you could look at to gain product experience. So if you're already employed but you want to make that jump to product management, what I always recommend is I'm Naman Pande. This is the Ready Set Do podcast and in this episode featured N guru is Jackie Henning. Jackie is a product manager at Cylinder and through her content has helped hundreds of aspiring product managers break into PM.

product managers break into PM. Therefore, naturally, we go over the exact steps that anyone willing to break into PM can take, including actionable tools and resources to facilitate your transition. In the last section, we cover how you can use AI to absolutely turbocharge your journey and stand out from all of your competitors. Just quickly to list out the three shifts. The first one is automation of basic tasks, writing tickets, BRDs. The second shift is advancements or innovations in how we're developing products. The third shift is this rise of AI native features in products. And what I mean by this is you must have seen some common pitfalls that a lot of people fall prey to. I know we covered a major one, right? Just go build something, get your hands

go build something, get your hands dirty. What would be some of the other ones? In line with our theme of learning from somebody that's just a few steps ahead of us instead of a guru, my goal with this episode is to help any aspiring PM out there to successfully make that transition into a PM role. Anyone can take a course online and get a certification. I think what really sets somebody apart is subscribe on YouTube and any of your favorite podcast apps for weekly episodes featuring non gurus and daily knowledge bites from those episodes on Instagram and YouTube. Also check out the other episodes I've made around product management. I link them in the description below the like button. And now without any further ado, here's Jackie. Jackie. Welcome to the only podcast in the world

Welcome to the only podcast in the world featuring stories of high agency individuals who are just a few steps ahead of us. Jackie, welcome. Hi, thanks so much for having me. So excited to deep dive into product management and all of the various amazing things that you share on your LinkedIn. And for our listeners, first of all, go follow Jackie's LinkedIn. She's amazing. Post such great content, especially if you're looking into breaking into product management, anything related to product, go follow her right away. could immediately come back because we have a lot of interesting things to talk about today and I want to start off with somewhat of what is now a tradition on the podcast which is that what is your controversial opinion/h hot take around breaking into

opinion/h hot take around breaking into PM? I know because you're so deeply involved into this you must have a few but can you you know help us get the ball rolling with just one of the your takes? Absolutely. Yeah, I think this is a great way to kick off the podcast. Um, and I think there is kind of a lot of misinformation about there out there around how to break into product. And just to kind of get it out there, I think the the main thing that, you know, I see a lot of aspiring product managers focusing on when they want to break in is certifications. I hear that all the time. I've heard that as well.

time. I've heard that as well. Definitely. Yep. Yeah. Like in my DMs, they'll be asking me, "Hey, Jackie, I want to break in. which certification should I get? Um, should I get an agile certification or should I get one of those product manager certifications? Sometimes they're offered through universities and there's so many offered online nowadays, but that's definitely something that I get asked about a lot.

something that I get asked about a lot. My take on this is, you know, a certification certification can't really it can only take you so far. M and I think the main thing here is, you know, anyone can take a course online and get a certification. I think what really sets somebody apart um and it can really set you up for a career in product management is actual product experience. Um I know it's nothing like revolutionary. revolutionary. Um it's not like a golden ticket into the uh field by any means, but nothing can replace um good old experience in product. No, I think that's such a wonderful call out, especially because of just kind of how transferable it is to even other domains, right? So um something that I was doing back in the

something that I was doing back in the day when I was in graduate graduate school was trying to apply for project management roles and for whatever reason I just developed this notion that I have to get a PMP. If I don't have a PMP there is just no point to anything. So the first and only thing I need to do is get a PMP. And I never ended up getting it just because Yeah. Yeah. I think to to your point, how far does that really get you and and also what are you really learning from that, right? You're just watching videos that you know might or might not add any value to that. So yeah, I think that definitely rings true and I think that's also a decent segue

and I think that's also a decent segue for if there is a young person, you know, that is looking at looking at breaking into product management, um what would your advice be to them? like what are some of the first couple steps maybe that you would recommend that they take to you know achieve that goal? Mhm. Well, usually whenever I talk to folks that are aspiring product managers, I explain the concept of the threshold. I like to call it the threshold. Um so I know, sorry to interrupt, but I know you had a post on that which I will pull up when this is airing. So it will help listeners to understand you know visually what you're absolutely great idea. Um so what is the threshold? So the threshold is the amount of product experience you need before you start

experience you need before you start looking interesting to recruiters, right? Oh, you know, ambition can only get you so far. Resume tweaks and keyword stuffing can only get you so far. But there's, like I said, a certain level of product experience that you really need to get to before a a recruiter looks at your resume and says, "Yeah, they look interesting. Let's let's give them that initial screener call." Um, so then the question becomes, how do you get to that that that threshold level of experience needed?

threshold level of experience needed? Um, I think there's a couple different ways to get product experience and it kind of boils down to, you know, if it's kind of like a decision tree, right? Like the first question would be are you a student or are you already kind of employed, right? Gotcha. So, if we focus on the folks who like maybe we'll start with the student, right? So, if you're if you're in school, you know, what can you do to start gaining product experience? Um, of course, the most traditional way you can do it is do some sort of product manager internship.

sort of product manager internship. Um, a lot of different companies offer PM internships and if you're lucky, like they might actually offer you a full PM role at the end of the internship. That's kind of the most typical way, right? But there's other things you can do, too. You could join a side project on on campus. Maybe there's a group of people starting a startup. That could be really interesting. or something like you did too, right? Any vested interest in Yeah. in just whatever you care about necessarily. Exactly. That was the other thing I was going to mention was No, you're you're you're right. You're you're you're fine. Um but yeah, so you can see what other kind of um work or research is being done on your campus.

research is being done on your campus. For example, like if you were at UT, you could have messaged that um professor I was working with and expressed your interest in that product and then offer to help out. I mean, then it's mutually beneficial for both you as a student and the professor that you know you're you're working for. So, that's another way you could get experience. The other way that I think is becoming more interesting is um building your own product. There's so many ways nowadays to, you know, start building your own apps, you know, using these different tools, uh, through AI and make it a lot easier now than it was before. So, I think as a student, those are four different things that you could look at to gain product experience

to gain product experience to move over to the corporate side. Right? So if you're already employed, right, and you're already in the corporate world, but you want to make that jump to product management, again, you have to to reach that threshold, right? Yeah. And so in this case, um you almost have a leg up from the people that are students because maybe depending on your role, you might have the opportunity to work closely with other product managers. And so what I always recommend is, you know, find ways to collaborate on projects at your company in a way that allows you to kind of pick up the roles and responsibilities of a PM yourself. And so maybe they're starting a new initiative that you know sounds interesting. Maybe you can reach out to

interesting. Maybe you can reach out to the product managers at your company or you know um the people involved in that project and and kind of uh get your name in there and and see if there's anything that you could help with even if it's something small like I don't know helping to take interview notes. Yeah. Right. Or um do competitive research um because again it's like a mutually uh mutually beneficial thing for both you and um in this case your company.

and um in this case your company. So going back to um you know just explore a little bit more around what you said with the threshold which I think is it's such a helpful visual concept right for anybody to understand immediately. So um it sounds like just in terms of a TLDDR get your hands dirty right you have to be doing things in and around the product space to reach that in one way or form. Now, how you do that can look different and you just laid them out, but would that be a right thing to say that it's not enough to watch YouTube videos, do certifications as you were saying before, but you have to be getting your hands dirty one way or the other and that is probably your I

or the other and that is probably your I don't know biggest way or that's where like the maximum juice is. Is that right? Yes, absolutely. I think that's kind of you know when you're looking at the the steps involved here to break into product management. I think that's going to be kind of the biggest blocker for most people is is getting quality product experience. Um because yeah, to your point, I don't think you can no no number of YouTube videos or or certifications can can really make up that gap. So it's like you said, I love the way you put that.

you said, I love the way you put that. It's just getting your hands dirty. um reaching out to people, see where you can be useful and then do that you know as many times as you need to so that you can reach that threshold and then then that's when you start building up your resume and start applying. Amazing. And just to take this just one layer deeper through my own really lived experience and through just talking to a bunch of my friends that are way more serious about breaking into product than I am.

about breaking into product than I am. One thing that they one one thing that comes out on top often is that despite there being an intent from their end to, as you said, be more hands-on with the projects that they're working on, it just so happens sometimes, you know, just that there just isn't anything that they can do. Their plates are already so full with their day jobs at their work, even though if it can be a tech company, but they're just not, you know, necessarily able to do anything there.

necessarily able to do anything there. Now I really like what you said about build your own app or product right that makes perfect sense they can do that there's nothing stopping them from doing that so my question really is that when you are doing that or say you use one of the AI vibe coding tools which I have a bunch of videos on that for anybody listening so feel free to check those out but say you do that right you make you give it a good shot you make like a decently lightish product obviously this is not you're not expected to make like a seven pager uh various navigation flows etc. And then what like is the goal then to get users or is that just

goal then to get users or is that just meant to be a pet project? Like how should one approach that in their mind? I love that question. Yeah. Um you know I think there's different ways you can take it and it really depends on what you're really trying to get out of it. So So if your goal is to build up your technical expertise, then maybe just, you know, pulling up cursor or lovable or one of these like other vibe coding tools. I guess cursor isn't really vibe coding, but like lovable definitely is. Um that's probably enough, right, for you to start demonstrating some of those technical skills. But I would actually argue that something that would be even more beneficial is kind of what you're describing. Um, if you can kind of approach it like, you know, you're not just building something, but you're trying to build

something, but you're trying to build something that is useful to someone somewhere out there and then actually try to get it in their hands. Because then that's when you really start to think like a product manager. It's like not just building something for the sake of building something but actually going through the stages of you know product development starting from discovery you know um refinement right uh maybe you're talking to some folks learning some things about pain points and then you can even build out a PRD if you want so a product requirements document list out the requirements break it out into phases even so you get some experience and sequencing some work, right? And then feed that into a tool like Lovable and um actually see that come to life.

and um actually see that come to life. Um and then afterwards, that's when the fun the fun part really starts. You can start sharing it. Go back to the people you interviewed. Um hopefully it's a problem you have too, so maybe you can start using it and seeing if it suits your use case. Um, but yeah, I think that would be an incredible experience for anyone who's trying to break into product to do because one, it takes you through the whole, like I said, the whole product life cycle from development to the actual execution.

development to the actual execution. Um, but also it's completely in your hands and you don't, that's what I love about it is that you don't have to anybody, right? Yeah, exactly. Like you don't have to beg. It's yours. Like you don't have to beg for an internship and wait for call backs. You don't have to message all these different researchers on campus and hope that they have something ready for you. You can just start this today. Like truly list out pain points, things that you're struggling with and you wish existed.

struggling with and you wish existed. List those out today and then start um actually building it. I I think it's um an awesome opportunity for anyone to do. No, totally. And I was as you were saying that I just thought of you know imagine a recruiter reading the following line on your resume that you know built and launched such and such app with you know 36,000 downloads. I mean that's a slam dunk right there. It seems to me I don't know anything about recruiting but I would hope that that should be enough to get somebody noticed right after. Exactly. Yes. like the the think about the quality of the bullets that like you could write if you actually did this and you add users on your app. I mean it could be as simple as like you know you could use percentages here you could say like had

percentages here you could say like had like 50% growth in the first four weeks even if you had 50 users totally and you increased it from absolutely yeah I just do the math but and yeah especially being in even content which obviously it's way easier than the product game 50 users is no joke right like it is a lot like yeah it's not even something to be um you know like taken lightly at all.

um you know like taken lightly at all. So yeah, I love that. That's so helpful. And yeah, isn't it just amazing that these tools have enabled this now because imagine us having the same conversation even two years ago. This wouldn't be possible. Like we would just probably both be stumped. We would be just like Oh, you're crude. Well, that's a story I have because and I actually am going to write a post about this next week. Awesome. Um but I so in my master's program when I was kind of learning about product management I was like just you know learning about the technical side of things like oh they have to be a little bit technical. Okay but I don't really know anything about anything technical. Yeah. So um I told my um the the researcher I was working with because she was kind of helping me

with because she was kind of helping me figure out what courses to take. Right. So, I told her about this and she was like, "Well, why don't you take like a cing a coding class?" And I was like, "Yeah, I want to take a course and learn how to build my own app and I want to put it on the app store." Yeah, perfect. So, somehow I was able to finagle my way into this Swift um coding class, which is the language um just for your listeners, it's the language that people use to build apps um iOS apps.

people use to build apps um iOS apps. And I quickly realized after like the first couple classes, I was like way over my head. It's like I didn't even know how to set up this thing on my local machine, like my computer. I didn't know what environments were. I didn't know any of that. I didn't do the hello world like exercise, like you know, that's like engineering 101. Uh it was like a fifth grader in like 12th grade literature class. It was intense.

grade literature class. It was intense. Um but so so I did end up dropping that course because I was like okay I I can't I this is way too difficult. But later on in my masters this is something else I did. I did have I did start a um startup with a friend of mine and he um was a software engineer or um he was he had an engineering um he was studying engineering and now he's a software engineer for I think Apple or he was the Apple. Yeah. So super smart guy um and still um friends with him. Uh and so we collaborated and you know uh worked on

collaborated and you know uh worked on this app together. It was essentially app to help student organizations on campus track attendance. Nothing too revolutionary. Yeah. But it solves a problem, right? That's that's all you need sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And we piloted with a couple of organizations on campus. But my point is um you know I had to go through this whole experience of like you know trying this uh uh swift class and then dropping out and then being like well I still want to build an app let me find a technical co-founder and you know even working with him it took about six weeks to get our MVP on the app store. Wow. But nowadays it's

the app store. Wow. But nowadays it's it's a lot easier than it was. So much easier. Yeah. And just somebody that comes from, you know, this place, it does kind of break my heart that just how difficult it is to set things up. I feel like most of my friends that ask me, you know, or used to ask me, I should say, how do I get started? Blah blah. Mhm. Two days later, they're like I give up. like I just straight up give up because it should not be this hard for me to set up what's everything that's needed for me to start learning you know like to go from minus.5 to zero itself tripped just so many people up and fair but yeah it's gone now right

and fair but yeah it's gone now right cuz now you can shoot straight from zero to 100 in in two days you don't have to understand all of it but it's something you can ship that's what I was going to say it's like there's still this learning curve I think that kind of might deter some people from from trying. And I'm not saying I'm an expert at any of these tools either. Yeah.

at any of these tools either. Yeah. Neither am I because yeah, I stopped coding a long time ago. Yeah. Well, some of my friends that actually write code, as you said, I think that was your call out around cursor was so important because my friends that that actually are software developers, they almost exclusively use cursor really. And I think that's the Yeah, that's in my head that's like when you've used cursor to do wipe coding, that's when you know you've made it. Nice. Okay. I gotta use cursor more often. Um, no. Yeah. So, but that's the thing, right? Like, it's it's definitely going to be a little bit of a learning curve at first. Um, but but no one's an expert, right? And so, just get in there and start poking around

and start poking around and and it it should be fun. Like, I think it's it's a fun opportunity for folks. No, I agree. Yeah, I I have tried to make a couple apps just these are just small web apps and it was just yeah, as you said, um this is something that you think should exist, right? And I just feel like stop right there. You don't need to over complicate it. That's literally all it is. Just go make something that you think would make your world better. It doesn't even have to be everybody's world, right? So, that's really cool. And then kind of going on from there because you you know you you're so such a vocal advocate for this space and you help so many people. I'm sure in your time you must have seen just some common pitfalls that a lot of

just some common pitfalls that a lot of people you know fall prey to and which can also be rephrased as what are some lowerhanging fruits that well maybe poisonous fruits that should and can be avoided by people that are looking to break into product. I know we covered a major one, right? Don't overthink. Just go build something, get your hands dirty. But what? Yeah. What would be some of the other ones that you see a lot? Yeah. So, yeah, just don't be afraid and get your hands dirty. Um, don't over rely. So, I guess it's related, but don't rely too much on certifications. certifications. But I think the third one I would add to this list is um don't worry too much about the ATS scan. I think some folks are almost like over like I guess

are almost like over like I guess sometimes I feel like people take this advice a little bit too hard um or or too much to heart for in and what I mean by this is I I I've been reviewing some resumes from aspiring PMs. That's so nice of you. Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's getting to the point though where I've noticed like some bullet points like they don't really make a lot of sense and it's because I think they're trying to to keyword stuff a little bit. I see.

to to keyword stuff a little bit. I see. Like, so my point is, yes, you want your resume to get through that initial scan if the company uses like a a you know, a system to scan for keywords, but at the end of the day, if you've done the steps to gain product experience and you've really thought through each and every bullet on your resume and found a way to frame it in a way where it shows your value and and what kind of outcomes you can achieve, then I think you're pretty much all the way there. Um, and if you want to keyword stuff, like you can put a a skills section at the bottom. Yeah,

a a skills section at the bottom. Yeah, that works too. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Huh, that's such a good call out actually. And on this podcast, I've had uh an ex recruiter from Google who actually said something very similar. She she also maintained that you have to in your head when writing your resume optimize for the fact that a human is reading your resume and there's just no two ways about it according to what she said which so yeah it's funny how that you know comes full circle and yeah I know we discussed um product management's overlap with AI from the perspective of somebody that's trying to break in but I also want to explore that same um overlap from the context of people that are already employed as product managers and maybe this will also bleed a little bit outside of that

also bleed a little bit outside of that scope, right? And also still apply to aspiring PMs as well. But in this day and age where we're look every day there's like a new development, there's this new product that does something 50% faster. Where do you see kind of the near future of product management headed? A lot of doomsayers are like this is going to go, you know, extinct. there will be no such thing as a PM and then there's the other side that's obviously like there you will always always always need PMs. So I obviously don't know anything about this but I'm curious to hear your take on the near future AI overlap with product management. Yeah. First of all I just want to say every time I go on LinkedIn and I go on my homepage I see those

and I go on my homepage I see those doomsdayers. Okay. So it's not just me. Oh no it's not you. It's like every other post I see nowadays is like, "Is product management dead? Are we getting replaced?" Like I I stopped going on my homepage because of that. Not because of that, but for many reasons. I don't really focus on my home my home feed. Um but what I will say just to answer the question that a lot of aspiring PMs and PMs have been asking me around will I get replaced by AI. My answer to that is no, especially not anytime in the near future. But I definitely would say that, you know, product management is going to evolve with these new uh innovations.

evolve with these new uh innovations. Um, and so it's important for us to be keeping up with, you know, these new tools that are being released and understand how we can, you know, upskill ourselves with these new advancements. Um, to be more specific, there's a couple of different shifts that I think are happening. And this is actually another post I'm I'm writing for next week. Amazing. I'm getting all of the exclusive. You are. You're getting a little sneak peek here. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but yeah, just quickly to list out the three shifts. The first one is uh kind of the most basic and I think it's the one that most of us are a little bit, you know, we're we're pretty comfortable with is um you know, automation of basic

with is um you know, automation of basic tasks. You know, things to keep this in like the product management world, it would be things like um writing tickets. So, Jira tickets, BRDs, maybe even RDS. I do that a lot. Nice. Even if you want to use um chatpt to strategize like scoping, right? Yeah, exactly. Um even things like writing emails if you want to check for grammar and make sure that you're like coming across the right way, like you can use. I just automatically assume everyone's doing that at this point.

everyone's doing that at this point. Same. Same. Like no shame, honestly. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Like people should be using it. So if I see a long dash, you know how there's like this big thing where people are like, don't use the long dash because then people know you use chat GPT and I'm like the M dash. Yeah, the M dash. Yeah. I'm like, well, I mean, they should use chat GPT.

well, I mean, they should use chat GPT. Um, so I think that's the first shift, right, is just automation of these basic basic tasks. And honestly, like you can probably save one, two, three, like a good handful of hours per week just just doing this. Um, I think the second shift that we're going to start seeing more of is um, advancements or I guess like innovations in how we're developing products. And so what I mean by this is, you know, like in the discovery phase, for instance, I actually used to handdraw out a lot of wireframes. But I had like a visual in my head of what I wanted, what I thought the screen could look like and I wanted to kind of brainstorm with my designer and get her idea and hopefully she came up with

idea and hopefully she came up with something even better that I didn't think of. Um, but you know nowadays I've I've heard of a lot of PMs using these tools to create wireframes, give it a stuff like that, right? Figma make I think is one of them that does that. Exactly. Yeah. So, there's tools out there that help you generate um wireframes and I think that's really helpful when you're collaborating with your team, but also like if you're doing vision setting, you know, trying to get some buyin for a new initiative you want to get off the ground. I think you could use tools for that as well. Absolutely.

use tools for that as well. Absolutely. Yeah. It makes such a huge difference, right? To see a fully polished screen versus, you know, just kind of a wireframe. That's so that's such a good point. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, I think we're going to see a lot of innovations there. Oh, and also um like analyzing user feedback. I mean, think about the days where you had to look through your interview scripts and like I guess do sentiment analysis or understand like pain points. Um like this is becoming so much quicker now with with these tools.

much quicker now with with these tools. So that's the second shift in my mind is just an overall um improvement in how we're developing products with AI um both in terms of speed and and quality. The third shift I would say is this rise of AI native features in products. And what I mean by this is more products on the market incorporating AI in in in the experience itself. And and this goes beyond, I think, even like chat bots and stuff like actually powering their product with these different algorithms to make this, you know, experience really personalized to users. I mean, think think about like all the different the all the different job descriptions we're seeing out there nowadays are

we're seeing out there nowadays are asking for like AI or ML experience. Yeah. At least some like experience with that. Um and so I do think we're going to see more and more products incorporating AI. Um and it'd be helpful for product managers to understand how exactly products like that are being built. on the third shift that you said, there is something that I would appreciate if you can clarify for me and this is kind of embarrassing, but so I had an idea for an app that kind of is a little bit like your co-pilot. So there will pretend that there are ways where it it finds out what you're reading, what your interests are, stuff like that. And really, it's a one of those one pager app. So there's no menu, there's no buttons. All it has is your

there's no buttons. All it has is your one page that opens when you click the icon. And all it does is every day or not even every day actually, but every time you click it, it generates what it thinks according to its algorithm is like a list of 10 words that is not in your lexicon, but that should be. That's it. That's the whole app. Now my like the reason I bring that up is is that something that you would call one of the the apps that you were just describing in in the third ship like that's just completely AI or is is that way off?

completely AI or is is that way off? Depends how the list of words are being generated. So fair. Yeah. Yeah. How um how do you see the words being generated through some sort of algorithm? Exactly. Yeah. So it will just be borrowing from like a lexicon area if we can visualize that where these are words that are just slightly advanced. Maybe these can be synonyms or related in some way or the other to some of the words that it like the algorithm knows that you are aware of or that you have seen before. So it does generate them. So there is a generative element to that. But I don't know how much I mean yeah it is AI. I mean going off of what some of the labels that we see

what some of the labels that we see slapped on some of the products like this is definitely AI compared to yeah you know what's out there a little bit. So I mean I think like and I'm not an expert in this area by any means right I'm still learning too but I think there's it it seems like there's a spectrum when it comes to AI features and how advanced they get. Yeah. Um, from the most basic level, it's like some sort of algorithm, right, that gets smarter with more information it knows about you. Yeah. But, you know, you could take that so far. And so, I like that. So, you're saying that to you what makes it really AI is the learning element more so as more so than the generative element. I think so. Which makes sense. Yeah. That I would actually

makes sense. Yeah. That I would actually second that if if if I had to pick that as well. Yeah. Wow. I mean, we truly live in such um exciting times. Um that's honestly those were really all the topics that I wanted to pick your brain on, but I do want to give you a chance to share anything else with our listeners and anything that I missed, anything that you would want to share at the end of or which is now the end of this chat. I mean, I just like to um close by telling all of your listeners, and this is something I tell my followers and mentees as well, is um you know, don't be afraid. Um just get out there and try. I think a lot of things

there and try. I think a lot of things I've been able to achieve in my life were was because I I didn't necessarily had I I didn't necessarily have any sort of example to go off of. I just kind of went out there and and tried to do it. It was like that swift class. It was a complete disaster. But if I didn't try that, I wouldn't it wouldn't have led me to, you know, really trying to find a co-founder and start the startup. And so everything's kind of a ripple effect.

everything's kind of a ripple effect. But the most important thing is that you get out there and try. Don't be afraid, too afraid of what people are going to say or think of you because ultimately like you can only, you know, reach your goals and and and um dreams if you put yourself out there and try. I mean, I I'm just actually a little bit blown away because that's exactly the purpose that this podcast serves to, you know, fulfill. Yeah. Like it's the ready said do. It's literally all about the do.

do. It's literally all about the do. Like if if you're not doing things, everybody has ideas. they're they're worth nothing but it's all about um yeah so I deeply resonate with what you said there and yeah thank you so much for taking the time here to share with us today and also just outside of this podcast also thank you for um posting such relevant such rich content on LinkedIn I I really like everything about them right from your very um sticky branding to like your colors your brand identities it's just such a great almost I mean I know it's kind like me'd a little bit now. But I do think it is kind of a master class in how to build a personal brand as well, which I know at least is parallelly connected to product

least is parallelly connected to product management also. Sure. So I've learned so much just you know by you know reading your post and following you and yeah to anybody listening it is a no-brainer to immediately go and engage with your posts and you know follow you on LinkedIn and yeah really appreciate you taking the time today. Well thank you so much for inviting me. It's been a real blast. Thanks a lot. That brings us to the end of that episode with Jackie Henning. Such incredible insight shared on how to break into product. If you would like to support me, the easiest way to do that is by subscribing on YouTube and leaving me up to a fivestar rating on Spotify or any of your favorite podcast apps. Something that goes a really long way for me is if by

goes a really long way for me is if by word of mouth you share or literally share like the link of these episodes with your friends and family. It really helps move the needle for me and help me break out of small channel hell. Catch you all in the next one. New episodes every Wednesday.