You're on OPT. You've been working for a few months and then one day suddenly you realize that you no longer have a job. You now have 90 days to get a new job or pack up your bags and leave. This is exactly the situation that Ammon found himself about a couple months ago. In this episode of the Ready, Set Do podcast, he breaks down for us in clear chronological order every single thing he did starting at that moment, from stopping his unemployment day clock to successfully finding a new job in what most definitely is the most brutal job market in recent memory.

market in recent memory. Do not attach your resumes because a lot of times Gmail filters it as spam, especially if that email address is very new to your mailbox. In line with the podcast theme of focusing on just the first few steps in any endeavor, my goal with this episode is to help you figure out exactly what to do in the unfortunate event of a layoff while on OPT or even H1B. We've covered every single detail from where to find volunteering opportunities, how to stop the clock, job application and networking hacks to stand out, and even mindfulness activities to ground yourself in this time of absolute chaos.

yourself in this time of absolute chaos. Oh, and I compiled everything we covered in this episode into this mind map which I'm happy to share with you if you just reach out to me on Instagram or LinkedIn. And now without any further ado, here's Ammon. The only way to learn is to do because life is lived in the arena. Ammon, welcome back. Thank you so much for having me back. It's been a while. Yeah, slightly different circumstances than last time, right? which I'm very curious to peel back the layers on. So I I suppose we should probably just get right into it, right? So talk me through the first five minutes of when you first found out like what was your immediate reaction?

like what was your immediate reaction? How did you find out? I guess could you like paint the picture for us? Sure. Yeah. I mean, um, it happened, uh, around mid of September, and, uh, I used to have regular one-on- ones with my manager, uh, back then, uh, on, uh, Mondays, and, uh, it was supposed to be regular one-on-one, you know, uh, but, uh, yeah, it apparently turned out to be, uh, a a call for, you know, role elimination. uh and uh that was just that that was my worst nightmare because I had I had seen such things happen on LinkedIn. You know, I had read such things happen and I had uh heard of things but uh when it happened to me it was uh really really like uh difficult

was uh really really like uh difficult to digest because things were going well uh in that company uh uh and certainly I did not expect to you know uh have such a circumstance but yeah uh uh that's what I think it happened very initially. So so did they did you have a notice period or was it just immediate for you?

period or was it just immediate for you? No, it was immediate. So the same day, that day was my last working day and then I had uh 90 days from there to find a job in the US to stay or else I would have to leave there. Got it. So I did want to kind of ask you about the stakes really for lack of a better term. Right. So um there are obviously I have some halfbaked ideas on what you need to do and not do in those 90 days but I do know that there is just a lot of misconceptions myths right like as you said until it actually happens to you most people kind of just passively keep tabs and such but that's not that

keep tabs and such but that's not that helpful so uh I expect a lot of our audience watching this to probably be in similar positions and you you know that's which is really unfortunate but that was part of my reaching out to you Ammon because I really want this in in a lot of ways to be kind of a one-stop shop for them in terms of what they need to know before we even get to the you know climbing back the hill which we will obviously be getting to in just a bit. So yeah you said 90 days what are some other constraints slash some other things to keep in mind that maybe even surprise you?

surprise you? Yeah sure. So the first thing is that uh I am on OPT uh student visa and this is my first year. Uh the rules vary uh from an OPT to STEM OPT to H1B. uh y on an OPT if you do get laid off uh you get uh 90 days and uh uh the thing is that uh you uh but the good thing about OPT is that if you are able to find even an unpaid employment whether it is through an NGO whether it is through uh any uh professor you're aware of right so that's the first thing you should do

that's the first thing you should do right so uh that's what I did uh my step one was you know definitely to actually uh uh kind of process it but you know such things are very hard to process right to be very honest yeah very impossible yeah I don't know how anyone can process that even even uh like I'm I'm still uh I'm still not completely through it it's it's one of those things but you have to understand that hard reality of 90 days in this market I have unfortunately seen people who haven't landed job for a year uh let alone u uh just 90 days. So anyway, so that's step one. Step two, you need to be very careful about your

you need to be very careful about your EAD end date. So uh in my case, my EAD end date was in February. So even though I paused my 90-day clock, I still would have to find a proper payer employment by February 15th. Uh got it. Quick uh quick interjection here, Ammon. So you mentioned that for if you're if somebody's on OPT they have to get into volunteering or any sort of kind of position to pause their clock.

kind of position to pause their clock. Is it the same for STEM OPT or is it different in that case? No, that's a that's a good question. So for STEM OPT uh you have to have a paid employment only. You cannot rely on unpaid employment. So uh but but in STEM OPT you get 60 plus uh the unemployment days remaining in the first year OPT. So for example a maximum of 150 are possible in case you did not use any of your so that's that's still a much better state to be in because you have four to five months uh as opposed to just 90 days in the first year. Um so yeah yeah interesting. So in your case because you were still on OPT did so how did you go

were still on OPT did so how did you go about kind of pausing your clock and more importantly I would say if you can maybe list down some options that are available to most people. I know you mentioned professors I know you mentioned volunteering work but can you maybe share a little bit more in terms of what doors one can knock in in this situation? Yeah, I think uh so one of the uh things is so there are there are multiple ways to go about it. Uh the uh first the best and the closest thing is definitely uh reaching out to your professors. uh because those are the people who you know those are the people uh you know you are comfortable with you would have already taken a course with

would have already taken a course with so that's number one uh uh right number two is then there uh then there are a lot of these uh organizations uh nos so uh there is in fact a website which I can probably share with you can list it towards the end uh or in the description description yeah and or I can just flash it right here on the screen when this Yeah. So in that website you can actually search for these opportunities. Number three is that uh I mean unfortunately because there are so many people being laid off and there are so many uh like job there's a lot of crisis uh in a lot of

there's a lot of crisis uh in a lot of ways your connections or your friends might you know know such professors or such organizations which do that. So you have to be uh you you I think that is also one great way. Other thing is on LinkedIn you can try to search for uh OPT volunteering opportunities and I have seen that there are some LinkedIn posts you know where they invite uh people for that. So there are these three or four ways to go about it. Uh but uh the the best way I would say is if you can convince your employer to be keep you on payroll for a few more weeks that just uh helps uh you to you know actually u uh avoid pausing it right

actually u uh avoid pausing it right because you are technically employed even for those extra few weeks. Unfortunately that was not possible in my scenario. So I had to actually start looking for those opportunities. So just to clarify that quickly, when you say keep you on the payroll, you you mean that you're not actually drawing a salary, you're just on the payroll. Is that right? Exactly. Uh according to books, you're still not unemployed.

books, you're still not unemployed. Uh right. And certain companies I know even the tops and the fangs, some of them do uh help you with this by, you know, pushing you maybe over four weeks or two weeks. Honestly, each week helps, right? reach hill a week 100. So uh that's probably the uh that's probably step zero I would do you know if you can actually convince and then the remaining four steps which I mentioned to crack those kinds so that's super helpful already right and then just to double click on the like logistics of it when you say volunteer or so say whatever you find a professor you find a volunteering whatever the case might be like do you have to report that to your DSO like what is the actual procedure of stopping the clock like what does that look Yes. So I think uh one thing you uh uh

Yes. So I think uh one thing you uh uh anyone watching needs to keep in mind is please keep your DSO in close contact with you through these times because they are your direct source of information for any immigration related issues and resolutions. So uh uh uh first thing I also did apart from this was schedule some time with your DSO. you need to understand even though you uh hear it from me it's more important for you to hear from your own DSO so that you have a greater picture of what is relevant to you specifically if there are any uh you know edge cases sometimes uh so uh the uh the only requirement uh is that there is you know uh SEDP portal actually where uh service can correct

service can correct exactly yeah so you can access that and you can actually add your employment dates uh and then the clock stops but for some reason you cannot see the number of unemployment days on your side so you have to only the DSO can so that's why better to if you sit with your DSO and you report an employment and then they can help you understand your timeline and correct me if I'm wrong I thought and I could be wrong right but I thought only the DSO has the like permissions to even input dates into the service portal is that correct or not really?

is that correct or not really? No, that that's not correct. You also as a student can uh change your and add it. Uh but what happens is then there are certain uh errors sometimes in the portal like for address and those small technical errors. So in that case like a like CMU also has their own form where they uh on the on their own uh server they report it back to service portal.

they report it back to service portal. So uh if you feel more comfortable with reporting it to your university first instead of directly reporting to Savis then you can do that as well. Yeah. Nice. I like that. Yeah, that's an important call out. Great. So then for you I guess how long did you take to kind of pause your clock? Um was that were you pretty quick about it or did you take a while? I mean uh yeah I think I I had to be because like that that's the thing about us right like uh as as uh things go haywire you still have to keep your uh sanity in check and uh uh the first thing my the my first target was stopping that club

first target was stopping that club right so uh fortunately I had some uh friends who were in who had been in that situation in the past so uh they redirected me to our CME professors who were doing it because not all professors really do it right. It's like it's also a bit rarer. So, uh that's how I got a couple of such opportunities. Uh and then you do need to keep in mind that their employment needs to be at least 20 hours a week and uh it it is preferred that you maintain some sort of a time log in a sheet or something uh and you have a proper offer letter so that if enquired you can show something to uh USCIS. Uh-huh.

USCIS. Uh-huh. So, yeah, that's how I went about. Wow. Wow. Okay. So, you know, all of this is going down. It's like your whole world is burning around you and at some point right now, you also have to obviously figure out next steps, right? Cuz as you said, you've paused the clock, but you don't have forever. So, bring us to your war room boardroom here, right? Like, what is the strategy here? How did you kind of go about formulating a plan of action if you even did that right or were you just kind of you know spraying and praying as they say I guess talk us through your mindset once you had stopped the clock you're like where do we go from here yeah that makes sense I think uh so uh it's I think uh it's really uh important for you to firstly be surrounded by

for you to firstly be surrounded by family and friends uh not physically but at least mentally Because a lot of times what happens is that you know everyone has gone through struggles to come to this country in some way or the other right you should not undermine anyone's struggles and uh uh I think for me it was uh formulating a system you know uh so what does a system look like you know let me describe that so firstly uh ensuring your physical health is in check right you're going to a gym I I I was following a a fitness regime I was cooking for myself I was going to gym.

cooking for myself I was going to gym. So that at least pushes you to a certain level of sanity, right? You're not uh just uh on your bed the entire day. You're not thinking about it, right? You're actually taking up taking some action. So that that's number one, right? Uh number two is trying to uh get a sense of the market, right? as to what's happening because right now you uh uh you or your friends who are employed might have a vague understanding but because you have been laid off right you are actually right in that war zone right where you can actually see uh the war happening so it's important for you to maybe seek help of your friends who have been in the situation very recently to understand what's uh what's pragmatic

understand what's uh what's pragmatic you know uh step three is being very realistic about what do you want to do now right now there are obviously in your situation there would could be a case where employers it was employer's mistake there might be some of it from your mistake as well but it's important for you to understand how will you not repeat this in the future or how will if not at least how will the probability go down do you uh think that this is still the right career path for you do you think you still want to be product manager do you think you should apply to software where you know so you have to actually in the first week while everything is going haywire you need to figure out what are your priorities right so these are the three things you

right so these are the three things you need to think about the fourth thing I would say is a bonus thing which is a nice to have is a backup option let's say in 90 days you do not get employed unfortunately for more than 80% of the people that might be the scenario right what are you going to do right are are you open uh what's your calling inner calling do you want to do something of your own do you want to go back to India do you want to try other country like having some backup option gives you some sort of a mental piece if not anything else right I initially I when I was applying I also kept software engineering as a backup because I was realistic like product management roles

realistic like product management roles are very very rare and most likely you will not be able to land so I was actually I also started practicing lead code questions you know simultaneously uh in the initial couple of weeks. So be very pragmatic. I would say uh start putting things in motion, start applying, start networking, uh start taking those small small steps and then uh there will be those phases where uh you know if you get an interview you will you will start really changing a lot as a person because now you have some evidence that your system works right. right. So I would say these small small steps are those things you should take uh in the first couple of weeks.

the first couple of weeks. Got it. One thing which I actually forgot to mention as your first couple of weeks is also make a uh Excel sheet uh uh like make a networking web for yourself. Okay. How many people do you know in the US? Right. For example, okay. Okay. I was fortunate to have a a very good set of connections from my past employer and uh I had at least 50 to 60 if not more people from that and I knew okay they have worked in XYZ companies before they have ABC friends in these companies uh start creating that database you know US is highly highly dependent on networking so you have to have a strong networking uh web in you it's in a form of maybe a table,

in you it's in a form of maybe a table, Excel sheet, and that was my go-to reference, you know. So, by the end of week three or week four, I had uh like these top 10 20 people uh and for each company, I probably had let's say two people. Okay, for Amazon, let's say I have five people. You know, for Microsoft, I'll have two three people. If I want referral, if I want connect with hiring manager like uh in today's world you're getting a job most likely because of at least 90% of it will be because of networking. Uh Uh no because you have to have that perspective in the first couple of weeks. Uh so even if you're working uh I hope that you're not glared off if you if not please start making some

if not please start making some connections within the company. Start talking more. Don't be quiet. You know, there's a tendency uh within our culture to uh uh look not very intrusive, but uh I think it only helps you not to be intrusive, but at least to start having some good conversations with your colleagues and start forming those bonds in the long term. Makes sense. And then with the goal of your network map that you mentioned, the goal is then to directly reach out to these folks and be like, "Hey, you know, we know each other through blah blah blah. I happen to be currently interested in maybe quote a job or two from the company therein. So do you ask for a referral directly or do you kind of be more you know pragmat or like warm

of be more you know pragmat or like warm about it? What is the what does the DM entail in that piece? Yeah, I think the the DM is pretty simple like it's like uh hey I have unfortunately I was impacted by XYZ employer uh last week or whenever I have X amount of days remaining in the US uh uh and uh if uh you are aware of any openings in ABC company or maybe these are the comp these are the openings do you would you happen to know the team or the hiring manager so it's Obviously best as specific as you get uh because no no one can help you if you're very vague but uh but then you also kind of know that okay in those 50 60 people who

know that okay in those 50 60 people who are your uh 10 go-to people right because maybe they are more closer to you you so to them you can have more longer discussions seek a lot of advice from them uh a lot of times they might be able to directly connect to hiring managers from different companies right uh so you have to kind of gauge what level of warmthness are you or what kind of level of relationship you have with those people and then try to frame your text and your communication.

text and your communication. Very cool. That is so fascinating. And then in your case, what you were pretty much doing by around week two or three was you had your map ready. You had reached out to all of these people. Did that help? like were there a few balls in motion or were you then mostly applying separately as well like where was it where it first started like what was your first glimmer of hope I guess yeah in this time no 100% I think the first glimmer of whole hope happened on uh just 10 days after my uh uh you know of the situation I was in uh and that glimmer of hope happened when uh uh so I have I think talked about it in your podcast before as well that what one thing which I do

as well that what one thing which I do always is up after applying I try to email the hiring manager or the recruiter. recruiter. Yep. And you mentioned that. Yeah. And that's what I did in this case as well except in this case it was for T-Mobile and uh okay uh and fortunately you know uh the hiring manager responded to me and she set up uh interviews through the rec recruiter and that really was the first glimmer of hope that my system which I used to teach to so many others that actually works even in such tough times or probably the toughest times. So Mhm. Uh that was uh the only interview I got. got. Hold on. So yeah, let's let's like you know this is very interesting. So you found a job on of that T-Mobile had put

found a job on of that T-Mobile had put out where I'm assuming LinkedIn. Is that right? right? Uh you know it was Yeah. LinkedIn and also workday their portal basically. Okay. Okay. Great. So you find this job. So then the first thing you do is fill out the application on workday. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I do not wait for a referral. Uh perfect. So you fill it out immediately and then how is it that you're able to find the hiring manager in this case?

find the hiring manager in this case? So uh there are okay so there are three ways you can find hiring managers. Uh the first way is uh that on LinkedIn a lot of times these hiring managers make uh these posts right correct so you you you should you should try to search on LinkedIn uh if you're applying for product manager product manager hiring or something of that sort and then uh a lot of time these are not official postings as well in my case it was but in a lot of companies these might just be LinkedIn posts because they do not know uh a strong uh uh you know inbound So they might just restricted to uh

So they might just restricted to uh LinkedIn posts. That's number one. Uh number two is then uh going on uh uh LinkedIn and trying to find very senior people if you do not have much clue. So normally for a product manager case a director of product or a senior manager could be a hiring manager right. So you go to that company, you try to uh uh understand okay who are the uh senior people in that and then you try to craft a very small two to threeline email which effectively says that okay why do you think you stand out? What do you want the person to do? If the person is not the right person, what do you want them to do?

them to do? Right? So these are the three lines you phrase your short email and then you shoot that uh uh right and the final step three to finding hiring managers is sending those uh uh job requests or job uh postings to your friends who work in those companies and sometimes they might be able to uh give you those insider information right so these are the three ways and uh that's how I also basically uh got to know the hiring manager and I shot her an email and that's how it started. started. Got it. So you applied and then you shared what you just shared. So the three things, right? What makes you stand out? Um and then the two other things that you just mentioned, you shared this as an email. I'm assuming

shared this as an email. I'm assuming you would have attached your resume and such as well. And then this person reached out to you with just like next steps. He connected you to the recruiter. Is that right? Is that how it went? went? Yeah. I I didn't attach my resume. So I have one suggestion to everyone is do not attach your resumes because a lot of times link uh Gmail filters it as spam especially if that if that email address is very new to your mailbox. So if you want you can have a hyperlink. In my case I did not have that. I just had one line about my past experience at Intel as an AI research engineer and my work as a product manager here at uh my previous employer. So yeah uh uh yeah the the thing was that

yeah uh uh yeah the the thing was that you also need to understand do you really stand out in that posting or not or you're just trying to fake Yeah. Yeah. So how exactly I was just going to get to that. What is an indication that you probably stand out or how does one know? uh if you think that your resume fits 80 to 90% of the job description and you do not need to highly modify it then you can understand that yes that is the right job for me for in this case the posting said agentic AI and it really fit really well into my past I would say 90 to 95% of my experience so that I knew that this was right for me because of two things one is it had what I did it had what I

is it had what I did it had what I wanted to do. So if these are the two things which are fitting in your criteria absolutely absolutely work super hard for those postings uh modify it uh uh you know uh apply ASAP try to reach out to the hiring manager you know just try to do everything but don't do it for all the postings you have to be very smart to understand which postings you should spend the extra couple of hours or maybe uh even 30 minutes and which you should avoid. That is such a great call out and I love that how much kind of, you know, just self-awareness goes into that because you're so right.

goes into that because you're so right. Nobody has the bandwidth to do that for every job posting, right? Cuz that would to severely limit and like that's just not even a good strategy, right? Cuz why would you do that? Cuz once the interview comes around, even if it does, you will be found out, right? So you you you can't be on the fly modifying your expertise while interviewing. It's in your head, right? you either know it or you don't.

right? you either know it or you don't. So then in your case because it was a role similar to what you were doing um did you then get to the like starting to prepare for the interviews or were you still kind of applying to other places as well? Like how did you spend your time after that first response came from the hiring manager? Yeah, I think uh one thing you need to I think one thing uh everyone makes a mistake even today when I speak to people is that they don't really do mock interviews and I think I had spoken to this even in a past uh podcast podcast that that is the differentiator of you not getting uh the job and versus you actually getting a job and staying in the US because

the US because uh if you are not prepared in this case I was not prepared because it had been one and a half years but then uh you event but then it's important how much efforts and impact you're putting it uh after that and uh if you have done these mock interviews in the past right then muscle memory still kind of does exist exist so I would say that uh it's not just for one time it's going to be relevant for uh at least the next 3 to four years of your career because some of the stories which you prepare some of the uh material which goes in it stays through you uh you know the the tech will change, the skills will change, AI will change, but lot of the behavioral stuff

change, but lot of the behavioral stuff it still could remain, right? So as soon as I got that interview invite, I really went uh harden. You know, the first interview is normally a recruiter call. So it's relatively uh not as intensive uh because it's more logistical. The biggest question during that interview is sponsorship, right? Because one more thing which uh we could touch upon dur happened during that time was the 100k H1B announcement near right. Oh yeah that was right then. Oh god. Yep. That was right around that time. time. So yeah how how did what was that like?

So yeah how how did what was that like? That was that was really uh flattening right because that because all the companies froze up these international job postings during that one month of uncertaintity although the uh speculations were cleared up in uh during the time of Diwali which was around a month after that. a month after. Yeah, there it still it it had such a huge traumatic effect on these employers that it really really uh it became difficult.

it really really uh it became difficult. Uh luckily uh T-Mobile did sponsor. So I uh fortunately did not have to go through a lot of uh issues due to this announcement personally. But then uh when I was applying I wasn't getting any responses from other companies. So I had to uh be very very sure about uh what I'm doing at T-Mobile needs to land at the end of it. And then when you were applying were you selecting that yes I need sponsorship or were you selecting no for that or what would your advice be around that piece?

would your advice be around that piece? So uh okay so one more the interesting thing happened during that time was a lot of companies uh uh added this question would you require sponsorship now? So before the question used to be view requires for ship. Yep. Yep. That what I remember now. So uh so that's also one thing you need to understand that a lot of these recruiters and companies do not know that you can work on OPT for 3 years considering you extended to scam OPD and they do not need to answer you. So please be very very be verbal and try to state that uh to do not assume that they know that you know. So you need to say

know that you know. So you need to say that okay hey like I I remember shooting emails like hey I have 28 months of OPT remaining. remaining. So I would not require sponsorship immediately immediately right because a lot of startups especially if not the bigger companies they are not very comfortable in sponsoring immediately they want to s some sort of ROI from you and then only they would want to spend those extra bucks. So it's very important for you to actually keep in mind that you uh are very honest about your situation and you are also at the same time always verbal about it. If you are emailing you know one thing you should always add is that I have x amount of OPD remaining and I would not require sponsorship for

and I would not require sponsorship for x amount of months because you are in a better state if you are uh if you have been laid off in your first year versus the third year right for obvious reasons. That's very true. Yep. Yep. When you're in this position and you know you've done all the interviews, there's now an offer being discussed. Would you suggest it's a good idea to negotiate here or are you one of those people that is like just take it man to push it. What's your take on that?

push it. What's your take on that? Sure. So in in this particular role I was I had six interviews uh with T-Mobile. Wow. And it took like five to six weeks. All of the interviews went amazing. Like really I really had a lot of fun time and learned a lot through these six interviews. interviews. I was like a changed person by the end of six interview because now you the the deeper you get into the game the higher the stakes are right. Oh yeah. Yep. If you get rejected in the first call you're like okay you don't care much what it is. But if you come to the final interview with the director uh you know you have invested I had done 40 to 50 mock interviews only within those four five weeks. So I was effectively

weeks. So I was effectively doing one to two mocks every day and uh and uh I I was applying to other places right but still you're you're uh this was the only interview I had that time pretty much. Yeah. So it each interview felt like a pass to stay in the US unfortunately either you go home or you hit it out of the park. That's the feeling you get. Uh and you have to ensure that you hit out of the park if you get that opportunity because uh and that's why I always say that mock interviews are your number one go-to uh strategy. Uh and was this still off of Louis's community or how were you finding so many work? It was a mix of two communities. So one

It was a mix of two communities. So one is the product school community which uh maybe uh you can flash it or put a link of it. Yeah, I'll do that. The other is uh Lewis lin community. U so I remember that from your first appearance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So both of these helped me because what happens is a lot of times you interact with experts from specific industries. Correct. So I was lucky to meet a gentleman who was an expert in telecom industry. So I got a lot of so I did a lot of mock interviews with him case studies and everything. So that really helped me prepare you know because uh if you are interviewing for uh uh a telecom company like T-Mobile you uh you might not have an idea before

you uh you might not have an idea before because you haven't thought about it from the product side but if you have someone who has been working there it's always better right so I think trying that is a great uh uh community there is also third community called product haven which is uh which I haven't used for mock interviews But uh it's a community where the lot of other fresh grads and interns looking for opportunities. So there are always opportunities for you to collaborate with them and try to uh do a mock interview. U so I would suggest these two or three communities.

two or three communities. Got it. That's so helpful man. And I still get messages from you're mentioning Liverlin's community on our first episode. It's like apparently people have just been raving about that. They're like this is so cool. how why did nobody tell us blah blah blah and I'm like well this is why I have Ammon on the show um and then can you also quickly touch on the like interview process itself did you have a case study and like was it pretty complex just a quick overview would be very very sure yeah so the role was agentic AI and uh agentic AI is so new right I mean the companies are still trying to figure out how to implement agentic AI systems with

how to implement agentic AI systems with the enterprise because it's so critical so uh uh I think uh uh I initially thought that I will have a higher percentage of behavioral questions because in a typical PM interview loop behavioral are at least I would say 40 to 50% of of the questions but in this case it was very application oriented like I was asked maybe 10 to 20% of the behavioral questions remaining all were uh case studies you know like uh system design so you have couple of AI agents this is the use case how will you design a system around this uh right uh what is the difference between uh then obviously

the difference between uh then obviously the technical deep dive so what is the difference between rules-based plus ML plus agent tech systems you know uh how do LLM's work uh what are the uh technical how would you prioritize your technical requirements right so there is this entire technical deep dive there is case study there is system design uh there is also uh uh like a product strategy that uh if uh like situational questions, right? So if X happens, what would you do in this case? If you have to choose between an AI model which is slow but accurate versus fast uh but very low in accuracy, how will you choose it? Right? Uh so I mean you have to uh be very smart. I think in today's world everyone has moved on from behavioral to

everyone has moved on from behavioral to more application oriented partly because the market is so uh bad that the employees are like the employers are spoiled for 2 to 3,000 applications for one role. Yeah. And just imagine like for this role also you would have candidates from Stanford, Harvard, MIT, CMU, all these people with uh so much experience fighting you know. So you have to really be uh as you mentioned self-awareness. You have to be very self-aware. what are you bringing to the table and you have to build stories around it uh and reiterate those during the interviews to set that narrative that hey this is the X which I bring bring uh and this is going to be very rare because of why

because of why so you have to reiterate that point that point exactly and that can only happen if a you know what that point is and B you have done enough work to make sure that that point comes across naturally and in a way that is acceptable and important for the company cuz they're not doing charity here by hiring you. They don't care about your OPT clock, right? They care about filling the position with the best candidate possible. So, man, like I'm honestly feeling so inspired just like, you know, listening to what you've been through and how much just the pressure would have been on you throughout that time, right? So I mean naturally right as every good story has.

naturally right as every good story has. Um tell us about the the time when you had that final confirmation like what what was that instant like when you were like this is it I did it. Yeah, I I think I hadn't slept properly for like five, six weeks, right? Because I mean you you sleep with so much uncertaintity like that's what I say you know I have friends who are want to come to the US and you want I think you wanted to talk about a myth as well. The myth is stability. The myth is that one happy person uh which they advertise in universities universities uh you know who is earning 200k 300k living a great life uh that is just not

living a great life uh that is just not the case like H1B life uh cycle is so more brutal it just gives you 60 days right so I mean uh this entire uh situation you have to be very smart how you navigate there are so many different kinds of visa options you can explore like 01 EB1 what do you want to do in life like you have to be very clear about all these things. So anyways like I I the thing is I had invested 6 weeks into this and this was my only hope right. So if it was a no I would have to start from scratch finding other opportunities and I had already been applying you know it's not that I have stopped applying

it's not that I have stopped applying but I had applied for 500 applications and this was the one thing which actually went from end to end. I did [snorts] get couple of startup calls but uh uh but uh I was told that the the final interview is going to be the most difficult interview with the director and that interview was on a Friday uh and that finished at 400 p.m. So that entire weekend I still remember I couldn't sleep because I was like what will happen on Monday morning you know uh because uh they they probably would have also other candidates who were contesting at the same final round who would you give that final offer to and that's where I think as I mentioned earlier that differentiator comes in right right you have to be very clear about the value you bring in and then yeah on

value you bring in and then yeah on Monday morning I got uh the good news and uh and I shared it with my parents and uh this enjoy my parents friends. Uh that was more of a verbal uh thing right and then eventually in a week or two I got the final offer letter and I started sleeping very well after that offer letter. Uh but yeah uh I think so that and over the process I realized that uh it all happens for a reason like uh me uh maybe this is the uh job maybe this is the position I was supposed to be in and uh and also when you do introspection right

and also when you do introspection right during these difficult moments you hear your voice like I had kind of lost that voice in my past uh employment but I was not really very happy with the work I was was uh you know uh because I was not in a very technical team. I was not in a very uh solid AIdriven team and uh I I think uh it all kind of ended really well. Uh uh now that I have a job uh if I hadn't I kind of had other backup options. Uh but by the to be very honest by the end of those six weeks I was like I have

of those six weeks I was like I have done so much interview prep. I have gotten so much better that even if tomorrow I I get uh a a a result which is not in my favor. Uh I I can still do something you know. So you get that confidence as well after you prep so hard. I think but yeah that was going to be my last question for you like you know one piece of advice for people in this boat. But yeah, I feel like throughout this chat you've reiterated a few times just that idea of, you know, stop letting life happen to you and start happening through life, right? Like you have to be in the driver's seat. Ultimately, it's the unuses on you to upskill yourself to whatever it is, whether you know stopping your clock despite having a mental breakdown

despite having a mental breakdown and then you start applying to jobs the next day. as you said, I think it I'm paraphrasing you, no one's going to do it. You're the one that has to do it, which which Yeah, it sucks, but there is also something weirdly liberating about that, which that part I can appreciate. Yeah, but like I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right.

I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right. Like do whatever it takes is that is that one thing, right? which uh which if who are MCO fans, you might know it from uh Stark in the uh end game. [snorts] But uh I think like in this case also uh in the first couple of weeks uh I kind of isolated myself to my social circle.

of isolated myself to my social circle. I became very uh uh like I inward you know I was I was more thinking about it. I was I started I went too deep into that interview prep mode. So for the next two months I forgot about my social life. I uh just did my workout. I just uh spoke with my parents, maybe some close friends and just I didn't want to think too much about what happened in the past because unfortunately there is this tendency to always uh go seek closure.

always uh go seek closure. But in such situations especially in the US US there is no closure. Uh and that is the best closure. Yeah I agree. Well, man, thanks so much for being such a, you know, great partner to the channel. One of my most watched shots randomly that this is like such a random thing to say is actually just you in which you're talking about why um normal product managers are afraid of AI product managers. I don't know why I like titled it that way, but I think in essence that's what you were trying to say. And that shot gets like I don't know 20 views every day. I don't know who's watching it. I don't know why, why, but I just yeah wanted to extend a warm thank you for being such a constant, you

thank you for being such a constant, you know, um partner and a friend to the channel and yeah, you know, it's not easy what you've gone through and I can just, you know, like the only lingering feeling I'm having is one of just real inspiration. Lan, thank you for sharing your journey with us. Yeah. No, thank you so much uh Nan for inviting me again. I think I really enjoyed the last time and uh I think uh thanks for giving that platform to share uh like this is the first platform I'm actually sharing uh this uh I'm I hope there'll be more platforms but I'm sure there will be. Yeah, first so many I got you first. Yeah. So, I'll be u I was actually thinking like I was I got so many messages that now I'm so happy that I can just send a link to your video and

can just send a link to your video and saying that okay just this is the one-stop shop guide to whatever you need to do to crack your next opportunity if you are in a layoff situation but yeah uh uh thank you so much man and I uh really really wish you also do continue doing great uh hope for the best. That brings us to the end of that episode with Ammon. If you've been lay off and if you're watching this right now, firstly, I hope this helped you. I I'm sure it would have. At least some parts of it would have been helpful, but also hang in there. Stay strong. You have my best wishes. I know you can do it. If you found value or if you have somebody else that is in this similar boat with you, share this episode with

boat with you, share this episode with them. Hopefully, this will help them as well. Catch you all in the next one. New episodes every Wednesday.